Should ultrarunners become vegan? With Stephanie Howe, PhD and David Clark⎮KoopCast Episode 1

What's going on people? Welcome to this episode of the KoopCast. I'm really excited to have you aboard today. Hey, everybody here knows somebody who is a vegan or maybe somebody who is thinking about becoming a vegan or maybe something. So somebody who has been a vegan and now they eat plants and animals. It's kind of prolific in the trail and ultra running world right now. We've got famous athletes that are that are vegans and even in the professional sports world, you start to see more and more athletes of a really high caliber adopt a plant based diet with the sole purpose of improving their athletic performance. And I know myself in my own coaching practice, I've had a lot of athletes come to me recently and ask the question, simple question, should I adopt a plant based diet in order to improve my performance? And so to have a conversation around this question, I invited two of my good friends on the podcast today. First off, we've got Stephanie Howell Violet, PhD in exercise science and nutrition. She's a former Western States winner. Should really go without introduction, but I think I'll embarrass her for a little bit.

Uh, incredibly smart intelligence speaks about sports nutrition all the time, has her own sports nutrition practice. And in addition to that, she's one of my athletes and is just an all around good person. We also have on the line, David Clark, David and I have known each other for a long time. He is an ultra marathon athlete. He's been in the ultra marathon community, multiple time bad water and Leadville finisher. And he's also a coach. He found plant based nutrition a lot through his own sobriety process. And some of that comes out in the, in the conversation that we had. And he has led dozens of athletes through a similar transformation where they have the opportunity to transform their entire lives partially through the mechanism of adopting a plant based, uh, a plant based diet. And so I got these two people together simply to discuss how we answer that question.

Should you adopt a plant based diet in order to improve your performance? And I think we got a really good, you know, selection of opinions on this. Hopefully I hope, I hope you guys enjoy the podcast. There's a lot of knowledge dropped and without any further ado, here's Stephanie Howe-Violet and David Clark. So David, I was curious, so after I saw you at Leadville, right, I kind of kept track of some of the athletes that you were, uh, that you were working with in advance of, you know, in advance of all those, uh, in advance of all those events. I want to know more about them because they've all got like really incredibly, incredible stories, but more specifically, I want to know like what, like, like your whole coaching process with working with those athletes, because it's not like, you know, it's not like what I'm used to as a coach where I get, you know, some athlete and I, you know, it's a remote based, you know, remote based coaching situation. Like you're taking them through coaching, but you're also like, like you're literally like changing their life.

Well, I mean, that's, that's the, the hope, you know, that, that, that is the end result. Um, you know, when I kind of recruit runners, if you will, I'm definitely looking for someone who's, you know, kind of falls within my unique area of expertise, you know, someone who's looking, I mean, everybody who's running is looking to running to give them something outside the act of running. Um, but I'm looking for that person who's looking for running to become a mechanism to change their life completely. So, you know, sobriety, massive weight loss, 50, a hundred, 150 pounds, total diet change, depression, that, that kind of thing. And, you know, running alone can't do that, but as part of a bigger picture that includes mindfulness and nutrition and a whole new way of, of looking at things and approaching running, that's, that's kind of what, what I try to bring as a coach. Do you, do you, um, do, are they all going to become vegan at the end of the day? Is that something that you pitched to them or something that they like come to the table with? Both, you know, I do, all of that is true. Like, um, we, I do have athletes who are not plant-based and who are, who are not interested in becoming plant-based, but, you know, I, I offer, you know, a unique look or a deep look into what I've done in my life to, to change. And if it's attracted to someone and they want to grab onto all of it, it's great. It's not the only way to

change, but it's, it's a way that's worked for me. And some people kind of do that on the cafeteria plan. You know, they'll like take certain things though, um, with nutrition and with my running philosophy and my mindfulness philosophy and, and leave the nutrition, you know, the vegan part of it alone. Others jump onto it. Others come specifically for that. So, um, you know, but I do, I do actually introduce it to people and give them that opportunity. One of the things we do as a group is a, uh, a total 30 day whole food plant-based challenge. I have them clean out the refrigerators, scrub them down, take all the food out of it, replace it with good, healthy foods. And the reason I do that, even if they don't want to be plant-based, I subscribe plant-based foods to them during this process. But even if they don't, they're still kind of creating this break where they, they start looking at food in a different way. They're cleaning the refrigerator out entirely. So now you have to be mindful of every single thing you put back into that refrigerator. So even if they choose to put meat or dairy back in there, I'm forcing them to kind of make that decision from a mindful place.

Yeah. That's interesting. So it cleans light, right? Quite literally. Yeah. I mean, cause we, that's why alcoholics, you know, yeah, I got 14 years of sobriety and the reason why there's that cliche of, of athletes or addicts have to hit rock bottom. Part of that is the obvious part where we need to accumulate some negative consequences, but more obviously it's that we need something to be a clear break from our current life. Cause we've, whether it's weight loss or addiction or whatever, we've all promised ourselves, we're going to change. We've all tried new programs, tried to implement new things. And we've done that so many times that, you know, it's hard to really get a lot of traction when you're starting something new, unless you make some sort of physical action. That's a clean break for the alcoholic that might be losing their job or, or having an intervention with the family. And if it's changing your diet, you need to do some difference. So that the cleaning the fridge out and like pulling everything out and putting it on the floor and seeing the rotten mashed potatoes and the fungus growing on the old broccoli and throwing it all away that, that serves that role. So since we're going to talk about nutrition, let's get one thing out of the way. Are we going, are we going, are we going with the word vegan or plant-based?

Well, plant-based is two words. Wow. Are we going with the phraseology, you freaking jackass? Are we using the terminology vegan or plant-based? Steph? Well, I think they're different to me, honestly. Like plant-based to me is less strict. I mean, it is, they're essentially the same thing, but I hear people say I'm primarily plant-based. You don't hear people say I'm primarily vegan. When you say I'm vegan, it's like- I'm selectively vegan. Oh, it, well, it has like, like, uh, you're in a box made of cement walls. Yeah. That's interesting because I honestly have the exact opposite kind of impression of it. To me, vegan is a lifestyle commitment. You know, if you're truly vegan, you're committing to not wearing leather shoes, to not using any animal products of any kind. Vegan tends to be much more rigid. And it's just in my experience, but plant-based tends to be a little more nutrition focused on, specifically to food. And, you know, there's so many different pockets within the community that, you know, some people consider plant-based, the only whole foods. Some people consider it to be no oils. It gets really muddied. And honestly, I try to say plant-based, but I find myself saying vegan sometimes just from lazy habits. But I'm not a vegan because I have a collection of Jordans that my vegan friends give me shit about. I mean, personally, I like the term plant-based better,

but I think it does conjures up looser values. It's not as charged. Well, the whole vegan thing needs to be rebranded. Everyone thinks of, when I think of vegan, I think of some angry white girl with cornrows, you know, who hates white people screaming at me, telling me not to eat, that killing, that fishing is murder. Yeah. It's like global warming, right? Like that got rebranded into climate change. Yeah. And now vegan and climate change are married. That's true. Yeah. Which is interesting. And I'm honestly into all of that. Yeah. What's that? I said it should be vegan and global warming that get married, right? Because those are the two charged, those are the two charged phrases. Yes, absolutely. And you know what? I'm into it.

Like I've, my journey as plant-based vegan has, has evolved too. And some of the more political aspects of the lifestyle are much more important to me now than they were when I first, you know, got into it. But that's the main thing, you know, to, to end out the whole question about coaching. I, as a coach, meet people where they are, not where I am. I think we all try to do that, but I do that with addiction. I do it with plant-based, I do it with everything. I have people in my group who are not sober, but are trying to get sober and I'm not going to exclude them. Yeah. So let's go with plant-based and that way we'll, we'll piss off the least amount of people. Since we're talking about nutrition, inevitably, when you talk about nutrition, somebody is going to get all their feathers up in a ruffle, right? So we'll, I'd rather piss off the most amount of people. Okay. Well, then we'll, we'll just call everybody vegans. Um, so I, I sent an article to you guys. I sent an article to you guys before, um, uh, kind of before we all got on the air here about Cam Newton. So obviously outside of the sport of running, but I think it resonated with a lot of people. And for, for those of, uh, for those of you that haven't kind of been in the loop. So Cam Newton is a quarterback for the Carolina Panthers. The quarterback is a position in football of the national football league. And, um, so he, he plays for the Carolina Panthers, one of the more renowned quarterbacks in the league today. He became a vegan in February of this year. And he did so very, very specifically to improve his athletic

performance. And I think that's important context to have this, having this, uh, conversation. He did it with a very specific intent. He, I'm sure there was some sort of altruistic motive that, you know, he wanted to save the planet and do something good and not harm animals, but him being a professional athlete, the goal of him becoming a vegan was to improve his athleticism, become a better athlete. Shortly after becoming a vegan, he got hurt in a game and his recovery from that injury has been delayed. And as a, as a part of this whole process, there was an article that was written in, I think, I believe the paper was a Charlotte observer that basically blamed not only the injury that he had, but also his delayed, the delayed recovery process after this injury on the fact that he had become a vegan. And I think that the article itself, and then also the reaction to it kind of illustrates one of our earlier points is this is a, the diet can become a very charged topic.

But what I kind of wanted to discuss with you guys being an athlete and a nutrition expert, right? A vegan athlete and a nutrition expert on the other end of the mics here is that I think that more and more we are going to see athletes in the endurance world specifically look at this proposition of becoming plant-based or becoming a vegan with the specific goal of improving their performance. And irrespective of the Cam Newton situation, sometimes that can go really well. And sometimes it can kind of completely go awry. And so Dave, I'll kind of like start out with you. I want to know like what, like what you think about that whole proposition, because you've worked with athletes in a capacity where you've cleaned up their diet and you've seen really positive results.

And so I just wanted to start to like get your take on what that means and how those athletes do that. Yeah. There's, there's so much there, man. There's so many unknowns. And this is the amazing thing that happens. You see all of these amazing stories about guys like David Carter, who's a guy in the NFL who switched to a vegan diet and became leaner, stronger, faster at a 40 and he's an offensive lineman. He's a lineman. Yeah. A lot of calories. And added, you know, yeah, added, you know, pounds to his bench press and revitalize his career. And, you know, the, the, the sports world is full of these stories, just literally full of you. The game changers movie just came out and everybody ignores these, right? Like you see all of these miracle stories about how plant-based nutrition has helped athletes and, you know, Nate Diaz comes to mind and the way it's coming on full sport or full bore in the USC and, and mixed martial arts and ignore all that. And then you see one story like this. And of course they want to grab ahold of it. Um, not because it has anything to do with the diet, but just because, you know, it makes them feel more comfortable about their choices or it's just affirmation.

They're just getting context. They're getting, you know, confirmation, you know, for what they already feel is true. So my question would be like with Cam Newton, it's the unknown things we don't know, right? Like why did he want to switch to the plant-based diet to boost his recovery in the first place? Was he having injury issues, right? Was he, was his recovery from injury? Cause the injury rate in the NFL is a hundred percent, right? Like you're always injured. You're always getting running. So yeah, but running too. So, so was he making a switch in response to the fact that he was already having diminished recovery and injury problems and he switched. And now that's been exacerbated by a larger injury, that's not recovering or any possible of unknowns, like, like we don't know, or maybe, maybe it's just something that we don't have any idea. So it's hard to comment specifically about Cam Newton. I don't believe there's any possibility that he switched this diet and had made him more injury prone and less likely to recover from his injuries based on any of the science that we're seeing coming through now.

I'm going to play devil's advocate a little bit. Um, yeah. Yeah. So I, I agree with a lot of that. And I think the body is really complex. And when you look at something, um, in application, it's really hard to piece out what is caused by diet, by lifestyle, by training, by genetics. So I think even when we have the science to back things up, it can be tricky, um, to really take that into real life. So anytime I, I look at someone who changes their diet, I think, you know, if you are, um, changing to become plant-based, I think a lot of times that is just eating better. I think it focuses someone to get more micronutrients in their diet. So there are a lot of positive changes that can, can happen with that. Now for an elite athlete, and this is kind of across all sports, um, there really isn't any science that shows that eating a plant-based diet is going to boost performance, um, over eating just a, the general recommended diet, um, with the, the right proportions of protein, carbohydrate, and fat.

So I would say if an athlete is looking to boost performance, um, going solely plant-based isn't, isn't really shown to benefit them. Now, did that cause, um, his injury and poor recovery? Um, that's hard to say. I think it's tough to get enough calories, enough energy when you are eating, um, plant-based because you have to eat so much more volume. So there's, there's a lot, there's a lot we can unpack here, but, um, I would say it's, it's just really hard to pinpoint. Well, yeah. I mean, I think if we stick to the first half of what you said, which, which I agree with all of it, you know, a hundred percent, like there's no, it is really hard to pull these things apart. And you said there's, there's no definitive science that shows the plant-based diet is going to work better than a, uh, a meat and dairy based diet. There never will be right. Like we'll never be able to focus that down to where anybody's going to ever agree that eating this specific diet is going to affect everybody in this certain way. It's impossible to do. And because of that, this is where the nutrition industry and in a specifically, you know, these little pockets of weight loss and athletic performance, they capitalize on this, right. And how they're able to pivot so much, you know, they're pushing keto one day or pushing plant-based the other day or pushing all day, all meat, heavy butter. Your problem is you're not getting enough butter because it's so easy to look at these statistics and these studies and massage them in a specific way. So we're never

going to have definitive, like clear evidence. We can point to, as funny as this, having a whole conversation about this the other day, as it relates to, to politics. And don't worry, Coop, I'm not dragging us into politics. Thank you. Thank you for not doing this. No, no, no, I'm not. But there's this way that we, we do this thing as humans. We want these facts and we're really terrible at using, at discerning facts from opinions. And we switch from them so quickly and so insidiously that we, we forget that we're doing it. And the example I use is like two guys arguing about sports and, you know, and I'm saying, you know, the Yankees are the greatest team of all time. You know, the Yankees have won 27 world championships. No other baseball team has won more championships than the New York Yankees. The New York Yankees are the greatest baseball team of all time. And I started with two facts and then I switched to opinion. You know, the, the Yankees winning 27 championships is a fact. The fact that no one's won that many is a fact, but that has nothing to do with whether or not they're the greatest baseball team of all time. And then what someone else does is comes in and they'll say, oh, well, the Boston Braves won more championships within a specific period of time. And again, we start inserting all these facts and then jumping right over to opinion and arguing against opinion as if it was a fact. And then we get into this really muddled thing.

And I see this happen all of the time. I just think it's a fact you made up your, you made up your own baseball team there. The, what did you say? The Boston Braves? Yeah, that's where the Braves started. Really? Is that where the Braves started in Boston? Come on. We'll fact check that afterwards. I don't know. I can't, I can't, I can't have a sports conversation with you, Coop. But, but, you know, I mean, I think we have people in the end, the end is going to be, you know, people are going to make the, they're going to, they're going to make the decision that they want to see. And so often, most of the time that human beings, we do this thing where we, we choose what we want to be real. And then we confirm that we, we look for a place to confirm it.

And I'm no different. You know, I think that's a perfectly acceptable thing for a human being to do. But because of that, you know, it makes it really hard to use really complicated things to try to sway people that don't want to change. And, you know, obviously who you're not going to take anyone who's interested in, in switching to a plant-based diet, they're going to latch on to all of the great stories that you see and all the athletes that have sworn by it and, and said that it saved their lives and their careers. And they're going to hold onto those. I put myself in that camp. And then you're going to put, you know, the other side of that, the people who are totally opposed to it already, and they're going to hold onto these situations like camp. But the one thing that I will say is that for me, when I first switched to plant-based, it was for sports performance alone.

I had no other motives to do it. And even for the first couple of years, I felt if I diet was missing anything, I would immediately switch back. Like I had no, absolutely no long-term commitment to being vegan other than was it making me a better runner? And I would say I'd pass that. So you bring up a good point, David, like you switched very specifically for a sports performance reason. And part of the reason why I really like this topic right now, and I think it's important to flush out is I think there are a lot of athletes that are evaluating, evaluating the situation right now. They're looking at all of these notoriable stories, right? In the professional sports world, and also with the game changers movie and, you know, all, all of these other kind of popular examples that we can look at. And they're going to go, you know what? I want to improve my marathon time, or, you know what? I want to, you know, I want to give myself a better chance at succeeding in this, uh, kind of succeeding in this, in this ultra marathon. And a conduit to that is becoming plant-based just like they would look at, okay, I need to find, you know, the next greatest gel, or I need to find, you know, my Nike, you know, vapor fly percent or any sort of other like ergogenic aid that you can kind of throw out an athletic problem.

They're going to evaluate this nutrition, this, this nutrition piece, uh, a la becoming plant-based in the same vein. And as a coach, I kind of, I have to look at that just like I do any other equipment choice. Like it does this recommendation make sense or does it not make sense? And for some athletes, that's going to, the answer to that is going to be yes. And some athletes are going to be no. And there's going to be a whole lot in like the maybe category with all the, with all these kind other, other caveats. But my point with all, with, with a dialogue is I do think we are going to see a number of athletes start to look at this and take the exact same approach, David, that you took, where I'm going to, I'm going to make this change just like I would any other change strictly from an athletic performance perspective. Now the interesting, what makes the plant-based thing, uh, interesting from that, uh, from that perspective is you can have, there can be, and especially if you don't do it right, there can be a lot of negative consequences to that.

And it can have the opposite effect of, of what you intended. And that's not the case with a lot of other like switches that you're thinking about, right? A lot of other, like if I go from gel A to gel B, probably not a lot of negative that actually happens from that. But when you're talking about like a wholesale diet change, right, that can either be for the good or for the bad from an athletic performance perspective. And sometimes like sometimes being able to tease that out is actually, you know, quite complicated. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you take two people and say, I, even two people who are eating, let's say this, I hate the word standard American diet, but like, you know, conventional diet, whatever, a diet based on animal products and to have two, two athletes that are doing that or a hundred, those hundred are not going to be doing that diet the same way. Just like no hundred athletes are going to be doing a plant-based diet the same way.

So it's kind of crazy that we, we kind of lump them all together. You know what I mean? Like it, it's really, really hard to figure out like, so any one diet change alone isn't going to make you a great athlete unless you're doing all of the other things that go along with that. And we never focus on that. Well, unless they were good to start out with. Yeah. Or I mean, that's not going to make you a better athlete, but it could also be at your detriment. Um, if you're not getting the right nutrients. So Steph, I mean, you have a nutrition practice, right? Like, hold on, hold on, David. Steph, so you have a nutrition practice. This is really practical for you, right? You have an athlete that comes to you and says, Hey, listen, I want to improve my performance. And one of the tools that I want to use to improve that is adopting a plant-based diet. What would you go through to like evaluate that situation? So the first thing I would want to get to understand the individual a little more, know their background, their history with food, um, because that all matters. Um, and, and some of their goals, like, is this a person who already eats really well, who is trying to maximize their performance? Or is this someone who maybe could, could stand to, to clean up their diet a bit, um, and benefit from that? Um, and, and one thing that I, I really like to do as a nutritional professional because a nutrition professional, because I think it, it's important to separate opinions from facts. Um, and still there. Oh yeah. So, um, there's a lot of nutrition information

out there and anyone can, can form an opinion on nutrition and really put it out there. So people are confused when they're sorting through information, trying to figure out what's real, what's not real. And for me, I've kind of, I have stake in trying to improve people's performance through nutrition. So I want to find the science that supports what's going to help someone be a better athlete. And so a lot of times, you know, there's, there's a lot of fluff to sort through. Um, and so, you know, a plant-based diet can be a healthy, sustainable choice for some individuals, but not necessarily for, for everyone. So I think learning about the individual is really important.

And some, some key things for, for runners are, you know, with protein, it's, it's not hard to get protein from a plant-based diet, but you have to be a little more, um, thoughtful in, in the way that you, you plan your meals, um, and making sure that you get just enough energy because there's a lot of micronutrients that are actually in, um, animal products. And sometimes getting all of those through plant-based products can be a little bit tricky and not as well absorbed by the body. So it's not to say that you, you can't get everything you need, but it just presents more challenges. So what would this, like, what would be the non-starters for you, Steph? Like if you, if you had that exact same situation, athlete approached you, I want to do this for a performance perspective. Like what would be the clear red flags where you would say, you know what you like, this is not a good setup for you. I would, I would not advise you to take this path.

So someone who has had a history with injuries, um, particularly bone injuries, that's something where, you know, it, it, it just might be tough with a plant-based diet. Um, and then a lot of people who turn to a subscribed way of eating have disordered eating. It's just one way to, to control it a little more. So really learning about someone, do they have those patterns? Do they have that history? And therefore, you know, going to a plant-based diet might just be another way to restrict intake. Um, so that would be something that, that I would look for. Um, and then also someone who already eats really well, are they going to benefit more from not eating animal products? And honestly, I, I think the answer is usually no. I think quality of food matters so much more.

I mean, you can't just eat quote unquote, the traditional American diet and, and be healthy. Um, but getting quality animal products, I think is an important piece of eating well as an athlete. Um, you can't just eat whatever you want. So that's kind of what I would look more to, um, to help someone improve their diet. And the proof, yeah, I think there's a lot of, Oh, go ahead, Dave. No, no, no. There's, there's, there's so much good stuff in there. And as being someone who is formerly 320 pounds myself and deals with a lot of people with food issues, you know, and, and, and actually regardless of weight, I think every athlete I've ever been around has issues with food or some sort of weird relationship with food. Um, but, uh, what was I going to say is that, um, these debates, you know, and, and I'm not a person that likes to, to debate the science of a plant-based diet. It's just not what I feel, um, motivated or to do. Um, but here's the one thing that I do put out there for everyone. There's so much stuff out there and you have to listen to not, not just one individual, right? One individual science is another individual's religion. And so if you're truly curious, go out there and poke around, like what's the, what is the, um, worst thing that can happen if you have an open mind and don't take everything everybody says, no matter how, how perfectly constructed the argument seems, but go out and see what is the other side of that? What's their science? What's their argument? Watch the documentaries, read the books, fart around or out

there and see, see what makes the most sense and take everything with a grain of salt and then experiment for yourself as well. I have a bit of a hard time with that because how do you know what you're getting is actually real? That's the biggest part. I feel as, you know, working with people in nutrition, the biggest thing I do is debunk myths and help them to learn like why this article they found online isn't true. So I think when you're just searching through trying to learn, you can get misinformed really easy. So that's, that's kind of, to me, a little bit of a dangerous step. But you do realize, right, that as sure as you are, as convinced as you are that your science is a hundred percent correct, that there's other people with just as much education, just as much credibility, just as much research that have a different opinion. Right? Yes. And I, I very much respect anyone who's gone through the same amount of, um, of learning as I have. And I actually really enjoy debating nutrition, um, and, and, and learning about other people's science and research. Um, and that's kind of not what I'm, what I'm leaning towards when I say, you know, misinformation out there. I think it's more, you know, the, the op-ed or the just opinions that are floating around, um, that can be really misleading.

Yeah, no, for sure. And the biggest thing we have to do is, is be willing to attack our own ideas and our own paradigms. Cause that, that's the biggest hindrance to progress. You know, we, we latch onto certain ideas and they're solid. We, we latch onto them for a reason because there's been a lot of research and a lot of conversation in this particular area. So we hold it to be true. So it makes us really hard, um, as we, as we evolve to grasp onto the new information with an open mind. And that's why you're always have the outliers in every area. You have the people who are pulling things backwards. You have people that are pushing things forward. You have people who are pushing things forward in the wrong way. Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. And I think one thing that, you know, most people who are professionals in nutrition are really invested in, in improving, um, the lifestyle, the health, the, the sports performance of the individual. And so I think I'm just speaking for myself, but I tend to be more open. I mean, if, if tomorrow a study came out that totally proved my beliefs wrong, I would be really open to it. Um, because I think that's part of learning and that's how we evolve. So, uh, I think there's this, um, you know, maybe it's a myth that nutrition professionals are just stuck in their ways and perhaps that's more the government recommendations, but nutrition science is actually pretty progressive and I think has, has come a long ways and especially like the upper end of sports nutrition in the past five to 10 years. And so I think it's really

exciting where it's going to go and, um, learning and evolving as, as the research comes out, I think is, is what we should be doing. For sure. Absolutely. So in every area. So my question, I actually just have a really quick question. Cause it's, it's just for me, it's just my own curiosity. So you said you'd be open to science that came out and proved something new, whether that was plant-based or say it was even the opposite. Maybe we're not getting enough meat, whatever it was, what would that look like for you as someone who's in this field? That's a professional, what science would, do you like to see? Like, what are your standards? Like what would cause you to totally abandon your beliefs now and switch to something new? What would that requirement be? It would be a, a paper research paper published in a peer reviewed, um, journal that has some rigorous methods. Um, so I would go through and I would read the methods of the study, what was controlled for, what were they measuring? Was the study in individuals? Was it in rats? Was it a long-term study, observational study? So there would be a lot of those, those requirements. Um, I wouldn't just read the, the abstract or read the conclusion because so much is, is misinterpreted. So it would have to be a pretty strong, well-developed, um, randomized controlled study with some, um, with some strong statistical results. And, you know, that's just a start. I think normally you get one paper published and then that sets off, um, a chain of dominoes. And you don't believe there is anything in the peer reviewed place field right now in that

space that, um, lends itself to what we're talking about on either side? Not necessarily. Um, I, I try to keep pretty up to date on, um, the, the current literature. That's something that I enjoy doing. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of information on plant-based diets and a lot of it is, um, like observational or looking over, you know, a long time period, but not really, um, it's not a randomized study. So it's not like they are giving one group plant-based one group animal protein. So it's, it's, it's tough. Those are hard studies to conduct. Yeah. And, and they really are. And it's, it's such an individual thing. So I guess also, are we looking at top end athletes? Are we looking at someone who maybe could stand to lose some weight and that will improve their athletic performance? Because to me, those are two very different cases. And, you know, the person who's maybe overweight and, uh, switches to a plant-based diet, they might thrive on that and they might improve their athletic performance just because they, they actually lose weight and get some of the micronutrients they're missing. Yeah. And also, do you want to hear something really interesting about, Oh, what I was going to say, David, also from, yeah, go ahead, David.

No, no, this is your show, buddy. You can do whatever you want. Your show. I know, right. Like I feel like it is right. No, that's just so important to me because what you said about people losing weight, switching to plant-based, that could be a good option for them. Well, there's this amazing thing that's happened in the 12 or 15 years that I've been doing this. And early on, let's say if I rewind the clock back just seven years and I told someone, you know, why don't you try going plant-based? See if it helps you take off that weight. See if it helps you, you know, create a different relationship with food and start thinking about it in terms of health instead of calories and all these things. And I used to get a really good kind of success rate with that. It was a very positive thing and people had great results with it. Anymore, you see on Facebook groups, in my own coaching practice and other trainers and gym owners, all kinds of people now who are switching to plant-based and not getting results. And I would suggest totally anecdotally that this is because of all of the new processed foods and marketing and things that are going on that are forcing people to switch from standard diet to plant-based diet with the same exact old paradigms of how to, you know, put together meals. And I'm going to replace dairy cheese with cashew cheese. And I'm going to replace sour cream with this sour cream and all that. And it's been very interesting to see and kind of sad in a way because, and I'm sure it's going to start

happening with athletes too, where athletes were switching and getting great results and they're going to be switching and using all of these other foods that aren't for whatever reason, giving them the same effect. But again, that's all anecdotal. I totally agree with that. And I think you can eat a lot of junk food and be plant-based, but that doesn't mean it's healthier. And I think earlier you touched on something when you said, you know, going plant-based, you were eating more real food, more whole foods. That's the goal of any, for me, when I'm working with someone is to get them to eat more real food. So if you become a plant-based, eat plant-based and you eat all of those processed vegan labeled foods, that's not, that's kind of defeating the point in my, you know, in my book.

So I think it's, it comes back to quality. And if you are, if you are eating quality foods, that's the number one goal. So if you, so, you know, for me, for my personal switch to plant-based, um, and I did it when I was training for my first Leadville 100, my switch included, I switched from an entirely whole food diet. I was eating fruits, vegetables, meat, and dairy. That's all I ate. And I switched to plant-based from that diet. Missing a few things there. Well, sure. No, I know. I, I know. I, I dumbed it down for people who are listening, but it included fruits, vegetables, meat, and dairy, which isn't a whole food. But I was eating a very clean diet, very minimal dairy, small bit of cheese on this here and there. But I was living off of my, my go-to meal was the New York strip salad. I would have lettuce and spinach and avocados and tomatoes and beef. And so I didn't feel that I had any need to switch, honestly. Like there was nothing going on in my training that would have led me to believe I did it as kind of a bet or a dare. And because I wanted to try to, if this was a good diet for me, I didn't want to leave it on the table, pardon the pun. So just so you know, like, and this is again for just my own personal change, but I switched from a very clean diet that I'd lost 140 pounds on. You know, I lost 140 pounds, not on a vegan diet, but on, on, on eating whole foods and eating a whole food based diet. So when I switched to plant-based,

it, it, and it had a profound effect on my own individual training. Well, and I think we need to, to remember that calories do matter. I don't, when I, in my practice, I don't talk about calories or restricting calories, but we, we do have to pay attention to quantities and how much we're getting, because even if you eat very clean, you can get more than you need. Um, and that's easier to do with, um, you know, like you were saying the, the New York strip, you know, if you, if you look at the energy in that compared to, um, a bag of, um, carrots or, you know, to be consistent with protein, like a bowl of lentils, one is going to fill you up on a lot more. And so cause your overall energy intake to be less. So I think even when we are talking about eating quality foods, the quantity does matter. Absolutely.

So David, you mentioned something that I want to kind of elaborate on a little bit where you kind of, you interrated your diet over the course of years, right? You found something that worked and then you interrated it two or three years later, and then you interrated that two or three years later, just based on kind of what was working for you. And I think a lot of what is lost in this discussion is you can take becoming plant-based in that same iterative fashion, just to see if you can pull it off. It doesn't have to be, I mean, you, you, we, we kind of opened up the show with David, you talking about your athletes that are making a wholesale change. And in those cases, that might be the best solution for those athletes. They need a wholesale change, multiple aspects of their life, not just their diet, but in high performance athletes, when we're talking about, you know, the difference of, you know, two, three, four, five, 10% on anything, whether it's calories or nutrients or mileage or any sort of other, you know, training stress that can, you know, that can kind of make or break the athlete in a multi, in a multitude of different ways. And so when I've had athletes that have, have kind of inquired about that and everything's already going pretty good. You know, you have an athlete, they're churning along, they're, you know, they're performing really well. They're, you know, kind of happy with what they're at and they want to make a change to their diet and adopt a plant-based diet. A lot of times the solution or the solution that at least I've implemented to, to, to flush that out is to do it

iteratively and to, okay, let's just do it two days per week. Right. Or let's just do it, you know, for, you know, three meals out of, you know, this 10 day period or something like that. And then that way you can kind of, you can track a little bit of a cause and effect. And to Stephanie's point earlier, where it takes a lot of education to make sure that you're hitting the right marks on a plant-based program. You're hitting the right protein marks, you're hitting the right carbohydrate marks, you're hitting all the right macronutrient, micronutrient marks and things like that. That education process can happen over long periods of time. And, and, and, and it can happen in a way to where you're not solely leveraged to a hundred percent of the diet working a hundred percent of the time. And so I guess I just kind of open that up. Like, do you see that as like a, like a plausible solution for athletes to employ if they do want to see if this is a performance enhancer for them?

I do, man. I totally do. And, and I think that it's important that like, if you, if you look at the conversation that, that we were just having Stephanie and I about how that, that needing to understand the ratios is important on both sides. So many times we, we tend to think, okay, outside of the plant-based world that everybody's nutrition is dialed in and they're getting all the micronutrients. And I was explaining how I was eating, you know, spinach and leafy greens and tomatoes and a New York strip and stuff like that. And Stephanie correctly pointed out that you can even get your ratios off in that place. So it's not like when you switch to plant-based, you have to start bringing out the, your graphing calculator to figure out a correct meal. And if you want, if you're a high performance athlete, you need to be doing this regardless of what your diet is.

I think all high performance athletes should carry around their graphing calculators when they sit down for a meal. And their food scale. And their food scale. You've seen me run. You've seen me run. I mean, I got the sign. Seriously, don't do that. That's a terrible idea. Well, I heard that the new watch coming out is going to be a graphic calculator slash food scale. So we're covered. Oh, perfect. Yeah. I want to know the function of X sometimes when I'm like at mile 86. Oh my gosh. You know? Okay. We done. I mean, I can't remember. Differential equations has never helped me finish Leadville. Well, but no, I think, I think that, I think that, um, what you said is, is perfect, man. Like you, the only thing I'll, I think moving in the direction of growth is the key for anything. Happiness, running, nutrition, to always be making that your North star, not, not trying to make some, and I'm going to sound like I'm talking about both sides of my mouth here, but you don't want to make these wide encompassing changes that are so big that you lose track of whether or not some things are working not or not, because you're so invested in making it work.

I'm not an advocate for that, but I am an advocate for making big changes. As long as you're not, as long as you're using that, that, um, that focus of growth to steer those changes. And especially when you're talking about the kind of athletes that I coach, we're looking to lose weight, looking to get healthier, maybe not looking to win Boston, but complete Boston. They've tried small incremental change. They've tried keeping their goals small and doing these small little things and it's failed them over and over again. And sometimes they do need something really big, emotional, that's going to scare them and, and create a paradigm shift for them. Yeah. And I think that's one of the big differences between someone who's just trying to finish a marathon versus someone who's trying to maybe win a marathon.

Um, there's, you know, very different goals. And I, I definitely agree with both of you that an N of one is a really powerful way to learn more about yourself. So trying different foods, different ways of eating, um, in context with what you're doing. So if you are that elite athlete who, you know, is training a lot, things are going well, you don't want to overhaul it because that could, that could end poorly. So incorporating plant-based eating a few days a week, I think is a great way to start. And then if you are that, you know, overweight, um, unhealthy individual who, who wants to, to clean up their lifestyle, start to feel better than maybe a more dramatic switch is going to help kickstart that. Um, and, and I think another, I'm just going to take this one step further and just say that, you know, from a holistic standpoint, I think eating plant-based, um, frequently is a good way to eat.

I, I know I've been kind of on the other end of the spectrum talking about animal, um, products on this, this talk, but I personally, I mean, I, I eat mostly plant-based, um, in, in my day-to-day life. I do eat, um, animal products that we have, um, I guess hunted and fished ourselves and I have chickens, so I get eggs. But I think most people can stand to, um, pay a little more attention and eat more plant-based foods because it's, it's ultimately better for the earth and for the climate. And I don't want to go too much into that, but I, I think it's a win-win on both ends. Well, I don't think anybody could go against the recommendation of eat less plants, right? Yeah. Yeah. That'd be a hard one to get past.

And I've never heard anybody, including the new movie Game Changers. Um, no one's ever really saying that to reap the benefits of a plant-based diet, that you have to eat a 100% plant-based diet. I have never heard those words except from people, from friends, you know, who that's become the religion. So true. And I think we, we tend to think of, of polarized, like it's black or white where there's a lot of gray. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and if you're going to be one of those people that's, that's eating animal products, you probably need a lot less than you think you do. Um, and you probably do better with a lot less. And to your point about the people who are winning marathons versus the people who are just trying to run their first one. Also, we have to, I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that some of the greatest athletes we've ever had, especially in running our plant-based athletes and have made that switch, um, and had it help their careers as well.

So it's another confusing thing to show in there. I think it's important to point out and, and every, this just goes to show everyone's different. Um, and, and knowing that there are many factors that go into them becoming, um, really great runners, not just their diet. Um, so I think one, one thing you just mentioned that I wanted to kind of touch back on was, um, you know, we, we say take it with a grain of salt or, um, you, you don't have to eat plant based all the time, but if you are someone who's primarily plant based, I think it goes the other direction too. Not being so overly meticulous about it that you, you limit your, your eating, um, it becomes very restricted. So if you go somewhere and there's only, you know, rice available that's been made with chicken broth, but you won't touch it.

Um, I think that does become more of a, and I don't want to label, put a label on this, but more of a disordered type of thought process rather than really looking at the big picture. Um, I'm just going to use her name cause she won't care. My friend, Claire Gallagher is a vegetarian and she is, you know, when she cooks at home, she eats plant based, but when she goes out and someone makes her something, she'll go ahead and eat it. Cause that's just what the food is. She said the other day she had a pepperoni pizza because that's all that was available. Just a social thing. So I love that, um, because it seems to me really balanced. Hmm. Well, and I can't say that that's going to be a good balanced thing for someone to do or a good or balanced thing for someone not to do. You know, I think that for me in my life, when I switched to being rigidly plant-based and I was, I was a Nazi about it when I first did it, that, that freed my relationship with food.

It didn't restrict it. It took it from being destructive and from being disordered to making it more about health because there's, I finally arrived at the place. It's like, I'm not going to put something in my body that's going to make me feel bad just because I'm at a restaurant or just because I'm in a social situation where there's pressure on me to do it. So I'm going to be true to myself and my own practice. That makes a lot of sense. And I think the difference in like trying to lose weight and eat better. I think that's, that's a great example of, of how it being, I guess, I maybe don't want to use the word restrictive, but more, more thoughtful about the food that you're eating is going to make a big difference. When I'm thinking, what I'm thinking of is maybe the, you know, person who's already on the, the kind of the edge of maybe not eating enough foods, not getting enough protein or micronutrients.

And then they go and eat a, you know, they, they restrict one more thing. It's just, uh, that's, that's the opposite, opposite problem. So you have to kind of look at, I guess it goes back to looking at the goal of the individual. Right. And we know from, we know from the research from, from a weight loss perspective, the most aphasis diets are the ones that people will have the highest adherence to. Right. Not necessarily high carb or low carb or high plants or low plants or whatever. If you stick to it, you're going to lose weight from it. And I know this is a little bit of a performance, uh, uh, commentary versus a weight loss commentary, but there are a lot of analogies that you can draw from that. If, if it's something that resonates with you and you believe that it's actually going to work and you're not doing completely stupid things.

And even sometimes when you are doing stupid things, it's probably going to have a positive effect just because you've done your research and you're meticulous about it. And, and, and, and you're, you know, you're getting all the right, you know, you're getting all the right nutrients in and things like that. And to that point, food should be enjoyed. I think it's a very social experience. Um, it shouldn't be something that it's like, you're just, you know, eating. I don't like thinking of like food as fuel necessarily. Like food, food is more than that. It nourishes your body. It's, it brings people together. So I think if you find a diet that you enjoy eating, that is going to be the right diet. Hopefully if, if it's done correctly, the right diet to help you get to a healthy, healthy place. That's a really good way to put a pin in, in Stephanie's thought.

David, we're going to wrap things up here. Stephanie gave us all her, her, her poignant take food is more than fuel. Why don't you give us one poignant take from the David Clark perspective on what food is? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. To that, to that kind of point, like I agree totally that, that food is to be enjoyed, you know, and that, you know, it shouldn't be something that we have to always be at battle with. And this is why health, making health is such an important step and becoming mindful with food, why it's so important to me, because if you take that and you turn it on its ear just a little bit, you know, and you say food is to be enjoyed, but make sure you're making the enjoyment decision based on a real mindful connection.

In other words, you might enjoy eating a piece of chocolate cake or an entire chocolate cake, but what happens an hour after you eat that? Is it social now when you wake up bloated and feeling terrible and feeling guilty and feeling ashamed that you ate that? No. So we're going to make the best decision and the most regulated decision when we make a mindful choice. Rarely are we going to mindfully choose something that has a negative consequence to ourselves. I would expect no different take from you, David. I really appreciate that. Thanks for having me on, man. Yeah, man. Thanks. Thanks to both of you guys. I really appreciate it. Hope everybody got a lot out of it. And yeah, let's call it a wrap there.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It was nice to meet you, Stephanie. Yeah. Likewise. Hey, Dave, I'm going to turn the recording off. Do you mind hanging out? You want to ride a mountain bike? Yeah. No, I do not want to ride a freaking mountain bike. All right, trail runners. What did you think? Are you ready to adopt a plant-based nutrition program? Are you ready to become a vegan? I guess those are two separate things now that we had actually talked about it. Or are you going to just incorporate a little bit more plants into your diet here and there? Who knows? Who knows what the right pathway is? I do think, and here's my hot take on the situation. I do think that athletes are well served and it would be impossible to dissuade somebody from this advice.

I do think that athletes are well served if they simply incorporate more high quality plants into their day-to-day nutrition program. Whether or not that becomes, whether or not, whether or not, whether or not the outcome of that is you become a full-blown vegan, you adopt a complete 100% plant-based diet, or you're just eating more plants, more vegetables. Who knows? I do think that if you think that becoming a plant-based athlete is in your best interest, you want it to improve your performance, and maybe you want to, you know, do something for the environment as well. Do it in small, meticulous, incremental steps. A lot of times, athletes who have everything going on right, they introduce big changes into whatever they're doing, whether it's nutrition or training or both, and it upsets the apple cart.

Pardon the pun. So don't do that. If you're thinking about becoming plant-based, just do it a few times a week. Do it for one meal out of the entire month. And then, if you feel good, if you think it's making a positive impact on your life, positive impact on your running, maybe instead of dipping your toe in the water, you kind of wade into the shallow end. And then maybe you wade in the deep end or not. Who knows? But the point is, undertake those changes in small, meticulous, well-thought-out, incremental, and smart changes. I also learned something about baseball today. The Boston Braves was a team way back in the day. I did not know that. David, you always have a knack at making me look like an idiot, which you would probably say is not too difficult.

I'd be remiss if we didn't thank our guests here. Dave, thanks a lot. You're always a good time to have on. I always appreciate your thoughts, and I always appreciate just having you as a friend, man. You can find him on the web and on Twitter and on Instagram at WeAreSuperman. That is WeAreSuperman. Go check him out. He has an incredible story and does a lot of really cool things with athletes. You can find Steph on the web, and you can find her on Twitter as Stefana Marie. I've never been able to figure out what that is. It's like three-quarters of her first name and her middle name or something like that. Just go look her up on Twitter. And on Instagram as StephanieMarieViolet. That's StephanieMarieViolet on Instagram. Go check both of them out.

They do great work as athletes and as coaches. And Stephanie on the nutrition front is, I can't tell you how smart she is. Really, really sharp. Really proud to have her as an athlete and a friend. I hope you guys learned a lot from their advice. And as always, we will see you on the trails.