New Technology and Training Methods with CTS Coach Adam Pulford | Koopcast Episode 120

trail and ultra runners what is going on what's happening welcome to another episode of the KoopCast as always i am your humble host coach Jason Koop and on this episode of the podcast we have one of the coach that i respect and admire the most in the space today and one of the most sought after mountain bike coaches in the country that is cts coach adam polford you longtime listeners of the podcast will recognize adam from a previous podcast where we talked all about creating resilient athletes which is something that adam is actually quite good at i have seen adam develop as a coach over the years and one of the things that is always the most impressive about him is his willingness to put himself in the firing line of any new training intervention or any new technology that comes across the wire he takes these things adopts them figures out what is useful for athletes and what is not useful useful for athletes he brings it into our coaching department and he uses those things with his athletes in his own coaching practice and i wanted this conversation to revolve around that to be a normal coaching conversation one of many that adam and i have had over the course of years that has made me a better coach and hopefully will make you a better athlete

be forewarned there's some salty language right out of the get-go on the other side of this intro so if you have sensitive ears or if you have kids in the room skip ahead a few minutes most of that salty language will be gone but it does come a little hot and heavy because we start out talking about two things that are very prevalent in the endurance space right now and we give kind of the rolly eyes to for those of you that are not uh watching the youtube version of this and that is near vanderpol's training which was all the rage when we recorded this which is right at the conclusion of the winter olympics as well as zone two training or low intensity training we will give you our off-the-cuff remarks about those two things right out of the gate so with that as a little bit of a backdrop here we go let's get right into it i'm going to get right out of the way this is my conversation with cts coach adam polford what up dude long time yeah no joke um yeah all good here just um just got off the trainer doing some good zone two work you know that we should talk about that man that's like you can't get away from zone two right now well you know i did my i did my two hours of speed skating and then my seven hours on on the bike i swear to god if like near vanderpol's training gets analyzed by one more

coach or entity i might lose my shit it's just like how many like really like i appreciate like this is cool let's go ahead and look at it yeah but god damn like it's a shit ton of volume and reasonable intensity distribution yeah period exactly it's like great you you were motivated to do a lot of volume you have the time cool um and yeah there's there's nothing wrong with it i mean in fact i was like oh what i loved about it was how he how he explained his process like not too many athletes i think are that self-actualized to be able to put everything down and i actually enjoyed like the more of the the less the training and more of the um mindset around how he chose to do what he did because it gave more gave more insight to his psyche or just like the person who he is and um i appreciated that yeah i i i agree with that every time somebody does something amazing this and they put something out like this it comes around i mean i can you and i can both remember when matt carpenter did that yeah you know kind of close to when he retired or whatever we're calling that now it was the same thing everybody scrutinized you know what he did what are we going to learn from it and all that stuff but for whatever reason this one i don't know what it is yeah it's getting like i'm like my whole twitter feed is full of it like it's yeah and i you know

and i would say like um i actually read it when you sent it to me but i've had multiple athletes other coaches like boucher sent it to me like boucher of all people who has like no time because he's just hanging out with the kids and coaching athletes um he read it and i was like really but yeah it's it's it's hot right now i gotta leave all this in by the way because this is the way it should go um uh all right man let's kick it off dude uh yeah like i said i always like shooting this shit with you we should do more of this by the way just as a aside um yeah we should like uh we can talk off air about how to how to carve that thing out um first of all i just want to get something off my chest you you like kind of like strava shamed me earlier this week where i was scrolling through realized my premium subscription to strava was up and was like gone for like four months or something i'm like you know that didn't really bother me but i saw a coop doing his coopalines of like you know three hours and 20 some miles or whatever the hell it was and i was like looking i'm like coop you got more mileage than i do as a cyclist this week it's only wednesday but it's not even a week and you're already like crushing me well i mean i i did uh the only reason for that is i went out to arizona and i was training on the cocodona 250 course which is a

race that i'm training for so i kind of set aside a training camp for myself so it's a little artificially inflated oh it makes me feel i did not realize though that you were so invested in my strava account that i would strava shame you without me prompting it well the one time of a month i look at strava it really really gets to me that's why i just put it away now for a while so i think you need to reevaluate your value system yeah i might i might resubscribe to the premium membership i don't know uh strava was actually one thing that i was that i gave up we could talk we'll start and talk about this i'm giving up strava this year no offense to strava i think it's a cool platform um but i don't use it professionally you know we use training peaks and i found myself not checking into it you know and so i'm like you know what this is something i could do without so i didn't give it up yeah i think that's great i mean i admittedly give it up um without even knowing it because again like the premium membership labs i can't like i don't know i don't use it either like professionally however every time i go on there which is probably even like less than once a month i am amazed at not amazed um i like the evolution of their analytics and it is really rich for people who don't say have training peaks or other training tools at their fingertips because it does do a really good job and it does a fantastic job of um you know categorizing the segments right so kudos to strava however yes i'm not a huge user of it i might miss the routes function

because i did use that a lot they did a great job with that but they made the the decision very early on and very deliberately to not intentionally or i guess exclusively like cater towards the coaching market and it shows up in the way their their their product is is uh the all the product features that are in front of users right now whether where it's a user first experience versus a coach first experience and which is cool and there's nothing wrong with that it's just it is it is what it is but i only have so much bandwidth and so i decided to eliminate that one out of the mix facebook might be on my next one i'm like on the edge check back in a month and i might might be off that too so like real quick just on the socials all right um i find myself consuming less and less i mean i i still i still put some stuff out there especially on instagram but like definitely consuming less i feel like athletes are like over it uh social media it's dead what do you think about that yeah but because group text is like thing you know in terms of like the conversation like there's plenty of media there's plenty of content out there but yet i'm like a little intimidated too because when you got like i don't know when you've got these professional athletes throwing out there they're they're sick edits from their team camp and they got like and i like post a selfie with my like old iphone it's like i'm not

getting my clicks you know and all this kind of stuff and meanwhile i can just send a group text to jane and coop and they'll be like oh and that's all i really need otherwise well i mean it depends if you're in it for your you know your own kick your own shits and giggles then i think you're right to limit it to your group text i've always looked at it though as a service right i mean if i can put content out there that's a service to people and helps people train or inspires them or whatever that's kind of how i like the that's how i like like like to use that that platform so it's not necessarily for me i guess is what i'm getting in fact we talked about this at our coaching summit i don't even look at any of the metrics or anything like that like i don't look at the likes or shares or how many i don't even know how many followers i have on all these platforms like i don't use that as a as a marker for success i really do look at it through the lens of is this going to help somebody is it going to be a service to somebody and if somebody sends me uh like a direct message or something like that either on twitter or on instagram like i i'm pretty it's it's a horrible workflow but i i try to i try to respond to to all of those i can't say that i do 100 of the time because i get lost and lost in the weeds but that just tells me that there's people out there that are listening that are that are into it totally i gotta do a better job of that myself like when i do put content out there it does take me a while to well it takes me a while to create it in the way that i'm doing it yeah right that's like consumable by but but

people actually super enjoy that right i think with you on twitter like you're pretty active there and you're sharing a lot of really good research you definitely read more research than i do right now so i always you're one of the people that i go to for um what is some of the latest and greatest of what to read um so i appreciate that but then but yeah i i just i think i'm consuming less social media i don't think that's good for you yeah having lists in twitter we shared this in our coaching group a couple days ago um having lists in twitter i think is that's that's that's the most power i'm gonna tell you why i'm laughing in a second that's the most powerful way to get a hold of the right research it is not easy though because the amount of terrible information out there to the amount of good information it's like 20 to 1 or maybe even 50 to 1 so you have to have a really good filter on it and it's hard it's really really hard to um to do that the reason i'm laughing is i made the analogy is that 2021 or 2022 now 2022's twitter lists and how you can use that for physiology is like the early 2000s version of our interns that would comb through all the uh all the scientific uh publications that would come into our office and like rip out and you know photocopy the pages which is a way more efficient process yeah all right let's get into new stuff man this is too much to see how many people are tuned in after this um yeah they already stopped listening all right all right so i wanted to talk to you about new stuff that that i'm excited about and that you're excited about so i'm gonna kick it off

this is something that uh first off i like talking to you about because i feel like you have your finger on the pulse of a lot of this stuff from mainly from cycling world but there's also crossover and other endurance disciplines obviously and i've always appreciated your take on it because you take it for what it is as opposed to sometimes what it's being pitched to be um which is very which is very rare and that's part of the filtering process that i was alluding to earlier on twitter so the first thing i want to kick around is a new is a new biosensor a new wearable sensor that is you can't even get it right now they had their official launch at the running event which is a big running industry trade show in austin in december and i i wasn't even planning on talking to these people until i actually got there but it's a company called nix biosensors and they make a wearable patch that most people will probably if you were to look at it it looks like a continuous glucose monitor so it's a little two inch patch that you stick on your skin and then it connects via bluetooth to your smartphone and it measures sweat rate and the amount of the concentration of of the total amount of electrolytes in your sweat i was trying to make sure i said that correctly because it's not just sweat sodium it's the total concentration of all the electrolytes in your sweat which is mainly sodium

yep but when i first saw this and i kind of like watched it from afar and then i stalked them for a little bit when they didn't know i was like looking at them just to like see their technology and all that kind of stuff the first thing i could think about is this actually solves the problem that i want to solve because because when you think about it in especially in an ultra endurance application trying to get a fix on your hydration rate and also your electrolyte composition is really clumsy right we've kind of have like the de facto way to do is you go out and you run or you ride you weigh yourself before you weigh yourself after and that's your sweat rate for that particular bandwidth of temperature and at that intensity and in order to create a profile for an athlete across different in across different temperature ranges it's a really clumsy process and it's kind of rife with inaccuracies and things like that and then you don't even get the electrolyte composition like that's a really sophisticated thing that you have to somebody's got to have a machine or even doing the whole body sweat uh sweat composition tests are really invasive where they've got to wash people off and measure everything like those tests are just it's just really really it's very very clumsy to do and so this is something that is very practical and it solves a problem that that that i think is a worthy one of solving where you can very easily create a sweat rate profile for an athlete just by having them wear this monitor and apparently it lasts for 24 hours so you could literally go out and do a really long training

run across a wide temperature range starting in the morning and in the evening or something like that and that could be your you know your kind of test case to develop a sweat profile for it the interesting part of it and this is because the product's not released so who knows how this comes out is they actually give you via the app the recommendations on what to consume and you can customize it via i want to i want it by time i want it by amount of i want to trigger based on an amount of loss so every time you lose four ounces or whatever you can kind of customize those triggers you know give you a prompt to drink you know x kind of xyz amount or whatever and in addition to that it'll match up your electrolyte the electrolyte composition in your sweat with the products that are out on the market so you can kind of match that as well if you're uh you know i was going to say heavy sodium sweater but that's not the correct term and you know what i'm talking about if you're uh if you're a salty sweater or a dilute sweater you can try to match you can try to product match in that kind of in that fashion but i think where the rubber meets the road is is what is the recommendation going to be because we don't know for sure and this is likely this is likely the case that a one-to-one replacement is appropriate across all endurance disciplines and what i mean by that is if you lose four ounces

should you actually replace four ounces and the answer to that is it's probably less but we don't know how much less maybe it's between like 95 and 85 percent or maybe 90 percent is kind of like the current working theory but it's certainly not 100 percent um and so i don't know how they're going to get around that anyway that's the first thing that i wanted to kick around with you is the application of this new product out there called nick's biosensors and there's no affiliation between them and adam nor myself nor nor cts i just kind of appreciate i just kind of appreciate what they do i put in my pre-order i ordered like i think i ordered eight of them and i'm going to send them out to a few athletes but what do you think adam would you use this as a coach or as an athlete what do you think yeah for sure i mean i think that anytime that we get some new technology like this if it's good um i'm always i'm always going to want to play with it okay see how it works see what we can see in the field relative to what we've known in the laboratory setting for a while um i've never used this in fact in this um nick's biosensor like you sent it over to me and i've seen a couple other things that are um adjacent to but not not the same right so i was like oh yeah this is pretty cool and it is very it looks very similar to the glucose sensor of which i've had quite a bit of experience with and i would say i you know with um just a little caveat with that glucose sensor is like

i think i was pretty excited to see um data from that and then overlay it onto training this is it's kind of like a training peaks dashboard with glucose that we can now see in real time with athletes of where their glucose are while they're exercising or at rest and all this kind of stuff and then give recommendations of what to consume when not as sophisticated as what you just alluded to with this nick's biosensor um but there and so and then it's like well how do you use it well there's some practical application but again it verified what we knew in the laboratory setting before so i think that it um it brought to light good habits or bad habits within an athlete and it helped us to refine those habits and also prepare really good leading into a competition i think with this um in particular with with hydration i think it's awesome because you've got different sweat rates for different athletes sure but also different sweat rates for different climates right and i think when you're trying to dial in an athlete with a product relative to the environment it's going to really help uh solve that problem or or gather more information so that you can make better choices as an athlete so then you've got your like high and dry nutrition hydration you've got your low and sticky humidity you know this kind of thing and with all these sensors it's i don't view it as like you wear it all the time and you become like this bionic athlete it's you wear it for a certain time period to gather information and refine your process then you go and do meanwhile you better be scrub you

better be asking these questions of how do i feel how does changing this make me feel did i know this about myself and get to be super in tune with yourself because that's what these little biosensors and wearables and all this kind of stuff that's what it's intended to do as opposed to become the soldier athlete yeah i think that what with with all these things this is the ultimate this is the ultimate problem that all of the wearables are faced with is they have to provide value out they have to provide value above and beyond giving you the data back because most people don't know what to do with the data and most people are lay consumers the aura ring has this issue the whoop strap has this issue all the biosensors are going to continue from a from a business standpoint to have this issue of okay we can collect all this data now how are we going to inform the user as to how to apply that to their day-to-day life or day-to-day training and even as something as simple as drink more or drink less which is kind of what nix is coming down to right that's still a tricky thing to figure out across everybody that is using your product and in my estimation where the a lot of the wearables have kind of gone awry is they've tried to over complicate the process to to justify the value proposition of the device itself and they do that through proprietary algorithms where whether

it's a you know your battery getting recharged or your recovery score or your readiness score or whatever there those are just ways to kind of masquerade the data that they're actually getting back or take the data that they're getting back and masquerade it as something valuable for the user in order to prove the value proposition of the you know hundreds of dollars type of uh type of device that you have but here you have something kind of to bring it back to the original point that where it solves a real world problem right hydration it doesn't in a simplistic fashion it makes a very big difference right we know that especially in hot and humid climates hydration is is one of the key driving factors of hydration electrolyte balance is one of the key driving factors in in performance and in addition to that as you started to allude to that i'm going to tack on to it's a complicated set of variables because not only do you have the individual variation variations in the sweat rate you also have the individual variations in the electrolyte concentration within each individual right the classic gssi bell curve where it can be anywhere from you know 200 milligrams of sodium per you know per liter all the way up to maybe a gram you know of sodium equivalent per uh per liter of sweat and that's a huge variation and then you also have the intensity component right so you've got all these variables that

play into what sweat rate and what sweat what electrolyte composition is actually in the sweat that make it a hard problem to solve for versus and i'm going to pick on the continuous glucose glucose monitors a little bit that's more of a that's much more of a contained variable right we know that people can only tolerate so much carbohydrate per hour and you can go out and you can field test that very kind of very regularly where the only consequence is is a kind of kind of an upset stomach and so by being able to monitor glucose which which is what a continuous glucose monitor will do you're getting feedback across this across this performance variable or this this this variable that can improve performance that is really not all that complicated i guess is what i'm saying you you have like ways out in the field of kind of like trial and airing it where whereas when i see when i look at hydration i just think it just it's just as much more complicated and we see this at the finish line right we see this at the finish line of major races where more people are hyponatremic right then they have low blood glucose way like way more people and we can go back and look at all the ultra distance and ultra marathon kind of uh research to to kind of to kind of tease that out which leads me to believe that the hydration issue is just a harder problem to solve and the fueling one well kub you and i have done enough camps and did the nutrition hydration talks and one thing that we've always said is um the

best nutrition plan doesn't work on a dehydrated gut right all right so it's you know hydration i'm not going to say it's any less complicated than regulating glucose because what i learned through the process is it's actually pretty complicated but you also got different tanks to pull from in in stored muscle glycogen as well as exogenous glycogen that can do and then there's enough regulatory systems in place to make you slow down and then pull from so that you don't go super low and so in that though like this glucose number that we see it's also just it's just it's measured in the um kind of interstitial fluids it's not like uh measuring your direct glycogen in your muscles and all this kind of stuff so that being aside it's definitely not perfect and i would say i'm doing less with it than i anticipated i would now with hydration though i still to kind of be a little critical about this too i hope that this sensor could give us more information we don't know if it will or not right like yeah i mean they said their validation studies give it within i had meredith their ceo on my on my podcast a few weeks ago i'll put a link to that in the show notes and they're pretty they're pretty apparent about the degree of accuracy to which they they they can detect both the sodium rate and the electrolyte composition of the sweat and it's within and it's within a tolerance that makes it practical

right it wouldn't be clinical meaning if you needed to get within one percent accuracy for a very precise dose of something this is not going to do it in fact there's probably not anything out there that can do it but from a pragmatic point of view it definitely gets you close enough and it's almost like the precision hydration um philosophy where they just use a low medium high in terms of uh the sodium composition of your sweat so they go you go and you get a resting uh sweat sodium uh test and they put you into one of three but they might actually have four buckets now they might have created like a super high super high bucket because of their the population that they're working with but they're not trying to say okay adam you know you need a drink that's 500 uh 523 milligrams of sodium per liter and coop you need one that's 560 milligrams of sodium per liter they're not getting that precise it's like 500 a thousand 1500 like that's that's the degree of granularity 500 being the the amount of milligrams of sodium per liter of fluid that's the amount of precision that they're getting it's very very similar to that um once again i haven't seen the output but that's the way that she was she was describing it i don't want to oversell the utility either because i honestly think you get you build a profile with an athlete with like four or six tests and then that's it yeah you know maybe there's some race day application you know i mean you went through this with the super sapiens continuous glucose monitors maybe there's a race day application

where it's like reminding you to drink all the old timex watches that you would set on 30 minute intervals to try to remind you to eat right maybe there's there's some application there but in terms of building a hydration profile which i think is the the value part the main value proposition here you go and do four or six tests you build that profile and then you've got enough data to really work from whenever you're faced with a race situation that's different than your day-to-day training environment yeah that's it i think it's um i think that's it because a lot of these tools are like awareness tools yeah and verification tools right so if you got an athlete who's not super aware of their hydration that's very bad right and as a coach oh hopefully i've been coaching for too long but you can bring awareness to do this simply by talking about it practicing all this kind of stuff this i think would expedite the process it would also verify what the coach is saying or whoever else is saying as but because i've had and heard of you know athletes say oh no i have had been all these problems with my nutrition or hydration and then they go get sweat tested or um they get tested in terms of um um what they're putting out and so the answer is putting more in right and then they do that but sometimes it's like uh jane had this problem with uh i can't remember really well whoever the guy's name was it's basically she was saying eat more eat more he goes and gets tested or eat more and drink more so as well and so yes that was the the outcome was he needed to eat more and consume more uh

so he needed the data in order he wouldn't listen to jane shout out to jane marshall our mutual friend and colleague he wouldn't listen to jane but he'd listen to the number on his watch exactly exactly and that's what i'm talking about is like sometimes us coaches need these verification widgets to to get the point across and that's fine um but yeah i don't see it moving beyond you know beyond that four to six tests unless something changes right unless you've got you know hormonal change within the athlete unless you're right have a new challenge right that you're going to go into environment you've never done before um but it's super cool because to be able to put this into practice is also um really interesting yeah the venture capital market is not going to like that proposition by the way the fact that the fact that the utility is fairly well contained right and the use case that they can get out of athletes is fairly well contained everybody loves subscription models right now and this is kind of one of the problems that's plaguing the the wearable industry is they're they're becoming too too reliant on a financial model that that doesn't suit the the utility of the device essentially yeah that's neither here nor there so you adam you mentioned this a few times and i i personally want to know more about this so we'll do it in the kind of the podcast audience you spent a lot of time testing out for yourself and then also amongst some of your athletes some of the continuous some of the applications with the with the continuous glucose monitor can you kind of like

take me through like a you're going to do a little bit of background for the rest of the audience on like what what it is and how you're using it but then b this is where i get to satiate my you know personal curiosity with this is ultimately what like what's the function of it now now that you've had access to it for a long period of time and you can really flush out this is how i'm using it and this is how i'm not using it i kind of want to know how it transpired over the course of the last several months yeah so it's almost we're kind of kind of rounding about a year right now um that i've been on sensor and use and have athletes that are on sensor and so to kind of define it um simplistically is a continuous glucose monitor a cgm is a little uh stickable patch that goes on your upper arm for the human performance aspect of what we're doing and this device has a little filament that upon application goes into your skin and then it has a like a waterproof seal that goes around the device the device is maybe as big as a half dollar sort of people can remember coins um and it's super lightweight um when you attach the device to yourself you honestly can't feel it um some people have a a little twinge but whatever it's and then but this filament is kind of living inside you the device is good for about 12 days or so um some people 10 to 14 but the device has some local memory on it

itself it gets paired to your phone and the super sapiens application is only available in europe and a few other countries not yet available in the united states so um there's a few things around that but it's the fda regulating it that's kind of like holding up in the us market so the theory was when phil sutherland uh race bikes he was a type one diabetic and he was always managing his glucose throughout his racing career what he noticed is that people's food habits or fellow racers habits that are that weren't diabetic they would have these crashes and bonks and so in theory he's like how can i take this technology and information that i learned and apply it to non-diabetic folk that are racing or interested in human performance or just biohacking and so whether you're an endurance athlete and this is kind of where my um section was i was a group of 30 coaches that got the super sapiens university and it was like three months of um education onboarding all this kind of stuff and in those 30 coaches there were some endurance focus like myself and then there was some like strength and kind of like crossfitty and like keto folk um that were uh really into keeping their glucose levels low whereas i was like let's burn it hot and uh and one of the i like me and uh another brad huffy like hashtag don't be as scared

of the spike because it's like right your ghost is like anything when you're when you go fast you push it on the gas pedal speed goes up glucose goes up okay and this is how it works inside your body and this is what we're measuring so in theory when you're not exercising when you're not training we call that off hours glucose levels are stable fairly low the numbers are somewhere between 70 and 90 maybe 100 as you go hard or start to exercise it'll go up to the upper end of that you go harder it goes over that it's not bad to go high in fact elite athletes those who can push hard for a long period of time can hold high glucose levels for a long time why does this matter why does this make sense the theory or the concept was to identify what your glucose levels are during hard training and then fuel accordingly so if you're going to spike up high try to keep your glucose within a certain zone sort of like training zones power zones pace zones this kind of thing and then during the off hours try to keep your glucose in non-training mode and to minimize inflammation and all this other stuff so as athletes and myself have worn it monitor it what have we learned well like i said before we've kind of learned what we already knew to be true which is if you want to have a really good day with lots of fuel it starts 24 to 48 hours out it's not just day of because you're going to burn through all your fuel uh very quickly if you start with a half a tank right meanwhile during the training session drink

early drink often eat early eat often this sort of thing also the food types kind of varies within certain people and i can give a few examples of that but in general it's it's awareness tool to see how you respond to different food types whether it's pure carbohydrate think of like white rice or really refined sugar or something like this um or combine that with some fat and how your glucose will respond and then how your body responds to that um and i will stop talking and go to youtube well the one thing i could think about is like we we have to remember that it's measuring glucose like just pause that's what you're measuring and yes we can measure the acute rises and falls and spikes don't be afraid of the spike i'll go off on another tangent with that and glucose but that's one aspect of performance it's an important one but it's just one aspect of of performance and you also have to realize particularly in really long events and we have to remind ourselves this is mainly an ultra marathon audience that we also have to manage gi distress and there's not necessarily a coupling between the glucose spikes and falls that you're going to see on your cgm and ultimately how that transpires in gi distress in fact if anything the fact that you see the rises and falls means that you're constantly dumping glucose from your stomach into your bloodstream and you actually want to see that

versus it sitting in your gut for a long period of time and potentially creating that gi distress so it i mean i remember when these came out and i mean the writing was on the wall i think initially in terms of the use case the use case where you're going to initially inform you're getting to initially use it to inform your practice and help you know maybe drive home messages with athletes that weren't receiving the message in the first place but then like the long-term utility i think still remains a little bit of a question meaning are we going to see these on athletes arms in the next 10 years in the tour de france like we see parameters on athletes bikes in the tour de france once again power meters just giving us a number back right it's telling us the torque and angular velocity at the level of the crank arm or the wheel wherever you're measuring it and we see it on athletes bikes because it's a useful metric to have in real time after the fact in order to do analysis and form training and things like that and i always wonder is something like this going to have that type of have that type of longevity where five or ten years from now the data is so useful that athletes kind of can't at that level kind of can't not can't race without it but find it a benefit to race with i guess is what i'm saying yeah um personally i don't think so i don't think we'll we'll get there and that's my criticism some people argue with me um the uci seems i mean they

banned it in competition you can't wear it during uci sanctioned events um because they don't want racing to become bike racing to become nascar just absolutely um however i do think that i do think that it is useful especially when somebody is struggling with their their nutrition right just like we talked about with hydration but i do think that yeah you go maybe four sensors to get in in what i recommend is like wear one change nothing for two weeks right just do your training sure yeah just consume as you are um then be off sensor for a little bit because again it's numbers i've had some athletes that are like cool i'll put it on i'm not going to look at it you look at it but i want to see it cool great um so then the second one is um put it on do really hard training right and then change nothing third one is maybe manipulate your diet so what i did was uh i went like super low carb for i wanted to say a week i think i only made it like five or six days i know you that doesn't last very long jeez i and i've done i mean i've gone low carb just for curiosity purposes in the past but like this was great because i mean i was super low i was not spiking bro but like i just felt terrible absolutely terrible first couple days eating like bacon and avocados and stuff is great but um i had no glycogen i needed a carbohydrate uh so manipulate do something silly just to see what happens with your body and then also at some point have you know either a block of racing or a main competition or

something like this where you just gather to see how your body goes over the long run um and then you can start to maybe fuel differently and um try to change a few things if you're having problems if you're not having problems i i'm one of these guys where it's like don't don't fix what's already working yeah yeah yeah so uh but i will say this too like you just have some really curious people that love numbers love to see what's going on and there's nothing wrong with wearing a cgm um diabetics using the portable the ability of this technology is actually super cool for you but like you can wear one 24 7 if you want well i mean you see a lot of team sports athletes that are diabetics that wear it now and i think it's a big advantage in that in that particularly in that application because before they'd have to go to the sideline and it's kind of an invasive process to you know make sure they're make sure their insulin levels are or where they need to be so that they don't have a some sort of health event right out there on the corner out there on the practice field so things like this from a safety perspective i think are super beneficial it's interesting you mentioned that i want to i'm gonna go low carb thing just to kind of see what happens and part of the reason i appreciate you is because you're kind of willing to tinker but when these came out i just i just have to laugh at this because i think you know where i'm going with it the low carb and the keto community went i'm gonna use this pun intentionally they went bananas like seriously like they just like really they're like in in the wrong way and here's where they really screwed it up you you alluded to this very you alluded to this earlier they were conflating

acute spikes in blood glucose with long-term health outcomes during exercise which is even worse i mean normally you wouldn't even conflate that at rest right you have an acute hormonal or or or substance spike and you would never conflate that with like long-term health outcomes but particularly during exercise where you're having all of these short-term events go on that are three four five ten x of what they are at rest you would never say that oh long you know you can't do this short-term because long-term this is going to be this but for whatever reason the low-carbon the keto community they just went apeshit over these spikes that would happen during normal bouts of exercise and would do anything possible to try to minimize it in order to achieve this like long-term health goal and it what it really demonstrated me was like a fundamental misunderstanding of hormonal response and its meaning in long-term health outcomes 100 and this it's probably rubbed some people the wrong way and ruffle some feathers but like it's because you know they created a religion about it yeah right and religion if it helps anybody on i i don't i think it was on either a super sapiens university or it was on the we nutrition with oscars you can i did a online university but keith barr came on and keith barr's like mr keto right and what he said what and he's talking to an endurance community okay endurance athletes and

what he said was hey look keto is pretty good for some of the members of your team but not all keto is good for the mechanics the team directors everybody that's sitting in the car for eight hours a day doing nothing but for the endurance athlete it's not the best that's so good i love that quote i'm gonna find that this is like the main researcher in the keto community so for anybody follow keith barr on twitter and read his stuff and you'll realize the religion is just all right we got to get off of that before the twitter sensors us somehow or the keto community sensors us somehow figures out a way all right next topic spotify will take you down spotify let's not talk about that i don't have a 200 million dollar spotify contract so nobody's worried about me um okay next topic man training intensity distribution yeah get ready for this one so um we started out chit-chatting i don't know if i'm gonna leave this in the podcast or not but we started we started out by chit-chatting about uh neil vanderpo's training manifesto that he recently released that both you and i got a hold of and everybody seems to read and everybody from the new york times to your saturday afternoon blogger is kind of given their you know two cents on the whole application but it provides a really good launching point to talk about this concept of training intensity distribution and you and i have been coaching long enough that we have seen

all of the cycles of this where first or for a while it's high intensity and everybody's got to do high intensity stuff and tabata intervals are the rage and you have to go 30 seconds hard in 30 seconds easy i mean that's the old varon balat you know uh research back in the 1980s where she came up with that um where she came up with that protocol she's a uh ultra marathon runner if you didn't know that good i didn't know that fun factoid she won like zagama in like 82 or something like that or somebody fact checked i think it was zagama fun fact right yeah there you go so anyway but we've seen this this training and distribution story play out where at one period of time it's all the rage to do super high intensity at another period of time then you're doing threshold work for whatever reason there's a and usually it's catalyzed by an elite athlete that does a lot of one particular type of intensity and is very successful threshold becomes the thing to do there's an athlete out there that does a shit ton of threshold work they produce a training manifesto and then everybody else kind of follows and makes a big deal out of it and then that fizzles away after three or four years and then oh now it's zone two zone two is all the rage and here's all this research about zone two about zone two and and how great it is and here are all these athletes that do 99 or 95 of their training when you're looking at it by time in in the zone two intensity so everybody needs to do zone two intensity and i should actually write this down on a piece of paper and put it in my safe and pull it

out five years from now five years from now it'll come back full circle to something else where it'll be some other different type of type of intensity distribution and i don't know what the practical application of that is but i kind of wanted to get your thoughts on it having seen the circles and the cycles kind of go around so much that maybe i'm just getting too cynical about it but i kind of look at the current wave which i would define as the zone two wave as just another iteration in this long history of being over fascinated with one particular type of intensity over another and eventually it just switches to something else for some kind of random reason it almost seems like yeah nail on the head there i mean it's history repeats itself there's nothing new under the sun all these concepts right like human history and it it spans from uh uh philosophy to religion to exercise physiology and training modalities right uh nutrition and hydration and so i think that as you zoom out and just observe us as human beings in this cyclical nature of thought patterns and stuff that's hot stuff that's new it's really not nothing ever is and so as maybe you are cynical i don't know i think it's hilarious because i sit here and it's like oh yeah we're talking about this again great i know that's exactly i'm like we're talking about this again training intensity distribution but it's just a

different one right right but it's you know what's fun about it is you i think as i age as a coach too you can then um speak to it with a little bit more wisdom or just a little bit more like of a neutral energy because like yeah zone two we've known about zone two forever it's great and yeah threshold we've known about that forever it's great polarized training it's a it's a way of finding your rhythm in training yeah we've known about that forever it's great right but then having a conversation about finding the rhythm for an athlete throughout a year or training cycle or whatever um but you know that's the more important aspect however i think what's really good about the here and now and say zone two and uh vanderpool's uh manifesto is i guess what i took out of it was a lot of beer a lot of ice cream and a lot of volume makes you a world champion right just kidding um but uh you know the zone two or aerobic capacity building aerobic capacity does take time yeah and i use zone two in my training okay when i have volume i use it all right if i don't have volume i'm going to manipulate intensity for a certain time period right but when i need performance i'm going to manipulate intensity bring down volume a little bit and so but then it's always this dial up dial down sort of approach based on the athletes where the athletes at what their goals are where we're at in a training phase all this kind of stuff but doing a lot of training does work yeah well volume is the ultimate performance

modulator right and within about 10 meaning if i had two athletes that were equally talented the one that does the most volume is typically typically going to win unless the training architecture is really screwed up and you see that once in a while you definitely see that but if you got two reasonably good coaches the one that can kind of squeeze out the most volume is going to win now that's not to go out and say go do 30 hours a week like near vanderpools are doing most people on a five day per week program by the way that's a big that's a that's a big you know caveat that most people miss their five days per week six hours a day that means you start training at nine and you don't finish until 10 1 2 3 4 5 you don't finish until 5 pm if you start at 9 a.m every day five days per week that's a work day it's a total work day so straight up that's not to say go out and be a volume monger but typically volume is going to be the biggest indicator of ultimate adaptation and and success and when we look at the intensity distribution that kind of goes within that volume yes it is going to matter but it's only going to matter secondary to the overall volume in an endurance sport with some caveats and i kind of give a 10 caveat of the volume on the top meaning you've got somebody that's training let's just take neil for example right you have somebody that's training 30 hours per week and somebody is training 33 33 hours per week i think you might be able to get the 30 hour per week person better with super smart architecture as compared to the 33 if the

if the other person's training 36 hours versus 30 i don't think there's anything you can do as long as you're not being dumb right as long as you're not just everything is that one intensity or what or something just kind of completely off the wall which none of those elite athletes uh uh uh really do and so i think people need to be mindful of that is that this there's this big hammer out there that's volume as much as i'm an advocate for intensity in an ultra endurance sport i'm still a pragmatist i realize that volume kind of you know trumps trumps everything out there um i'm reminded of a strategy that lindsey and dean golich really impressed upon me many many years ago so shout out to those two people when we were discussing this exact same thing during the threshold craze which is probably 10 years ago adam and everybody was doing threshold work you know it was like it was the most improvable system right that was the tagline that we had the company we worked for wrote several books about it yeah i mean and it's true from a physiological standpoint you can get that needle to move more than the vo2 max needle absolutely but um the my point with that is is we were having these during the during the during the during if we replace the zone two craze with the threshold craze of 10 years ago coaches and athletes were kind of making the same mistakes is they were they were buying into the the hype a little bit too much and shading their training too much towards the thing that was

getting put in front of them by the media all too often and that was that was threshold training no and i remember dean and lynn dean and lindsey kind of saying concurrently they're like listen if you're talking about periodization you can't go wrong with starting with the the physiological aspects that are the least specific to the event and then moving to the things that are most specific you can take any athlete in any endurance domain across any discipline and use that strategy of tuning the most physiologically relevant aspects to the race the closest to the race and then the furthest away tuning the least specific ones and then everybody starts like their hair starts getting put on fire because inevitably what that does is it violates a lot of the periodization principles that that have been established for long periods of time which is you need to build base build first you have to build base build you have to base build first and then move to higher intensities which if you were in in a very low intensity event you would think about that in the opposite realm right where you're not doing the low intensity first you're doing the low intensity stuff last so i cut whenever i whenever these conversations about training intensity distribution or polarized training or zone to this or it'll be something 6.2 millimoles of lactate is the magical you know lactate i'm just going to be something like

that somebody time stamp this is going to be the magical intensity that they're going to trademark it yeah i'll come up with a book 6.2 millimoles i'm gonna i'm gonna file for the patent now just randomly guessing at the number um whatever thing whatever training intensity du jour kind of comes up you can't go wrong with that initial that original principle with least specific to most specific because still everything is physiologically everything is physiologically rooted and there is no magic intensity that is markedly superior superior to the rest of them although you need a different mix depending upon the athlete that you're working with yes 100 as i'm sitting here and if people are watching on zoom i often times stare up at a wall or whatever when i'm thinking whatever but i think that like we we have to give athletes and human beings a little bit of grace here because we i'm not very good at that by the way you know yeah i know you're not which is why this is why i brought you on to give everybody a big hug that's right everybody it's hug time hold hands um exercise physiology is a pretty young thing yeah right so we're talking about periodization tutor bumper right kind of like the grandfather if you will of periodization um what it 80s is that when he was writing his books or like 90s early on that i think it was in the 70s but yeah you're 70s okay so all right so four decades

worth and all of that modeled approach or all that planning was born out of what the eastern block right yeah and which is an issue i know you're going which is an issue all right so like it or not folks the periodization models that we love and use were born out of steroid cycles three up one down exactly because they needed to take the drugs away for a little bit in order to reintroduce them back in so that they would have a better effect they couldn't and so when they took the drugs out the athletes couldn't do the training as hard so they had to reduce training then they brought the drugs back in then you could do more training and then away you went so these three up one so then all of a sudden they're like well what if we just took this concept but took away the drugs we're like oh that works too because of uh gas principle general adaptation syndrome from um um unsellier unsell unsellier am i saying that wrong yeah unsellier and so you take these principles and you you say well why why why do we have what they are now and you observe it for what it is and you're like well that's crazy a lot of people are like oh i'd never do that but what we're learning we're evolving over time very short history of exercise physiology and periodization and all this kind of stuff we're still figuring it out we still don't know what causes fatigue right multiple very simple yeah very simple yeah okay and so as we're learning over time we're scrubbing the process and we're getting things better

but this is where humans again fall short we always want the quick fix we always want the shiny fancy thing we want results now okay and this is why whatever craze is going on whatever elite athlete is setting world records and whatever they're drinking eating pooping or wearing and using whatever i want that and it's just human nature to do that and i think the longer you live hopefully you've realized it's like fluff and stuff right well yeah i think all to your point on the history piece of it all coaches are really well served to understand that history because many times what we're just we're just beg borrowing and stealing training structure and principles from people that have developed them 20 or 30 years ago and it's in in many cases some cases they're going to remain the same in other cases they absolutely need to evolve the three to one principle i remember when i came out of it when i came out with the very first edition of my book i actually use this as kind of like an anecdote to like lead into why i wrote the book uh very early on in my coaching uh career jim layman actually asked me that very question he's like why do you have three weeks of build and one week of rest and i was like fuck i don't have a good answer to that like i don't i don't know because that's what i did in college because that's what i saw in jack janel's jack daniel's training formula like i couldn't explain it physiologically is what he was trying to get at i couldn't explain why

an athlete needed three weeks of an overload cycle and then one week or five days of a deloading cycle in order to produce adaptation i couldn't explain why that why those time frames were not necessary why is it not one on one off why is it not two on why is it not three days on one day off like what like you know tell me what's going on physiologically and it made me come to the conclusion that we were all just being lazy like we use this three to one cycle all too often and we still you do it i do it we can probably look at training peaks right now and 80 of our athletes have some semblance of that in there we're all just kind of being lazy because we don't know a better way to explain it and so my point with that is is a lot of young coaches out there and athletes that are trying to diy their training they would be really well served to understand some of the history of that because it makes you think about it in a different in a different context and very specifically with this three to one it the genesis of that is largely not exclusively but largely rooted in the drug cycles that you had mentioned earlier and i will also say with a lot of females because they were very susceptible to that three to one cycle matching up with their with their menstrual cycle and once you realize that and if you're patterning your training with your athletes around that same three to one pattern you have to realize how irrelevant it is because your athletes are hopefully not doped up eastern block women hopefully right i mean if they are then i guess you can match that pattern but i mean but you know our i don't have any athletes that fit that i haven't i've never had an athlete that fits

that category so we just have to watch it i guess when we're blindly regurgitating patterns yeah no 100 right and and i think um that's where in my um college education i had a pretty unique experience and uh mad respect and kudos to dennis klein who is still to this day one of the smartest guys i know he's he's like um dean gollich of strength training oh wow okay okay very simple to the point like you either love or you hate him there's nothing yeah yeah yeah and fancy about it right but that he was as we're studying periodization he's like no we don't need to do that like what and this is where uh you remember the term undulating periodization yeah yeah okay this is a little like kind of i totally forgot about that until you mentioned it that's another one undulating periodization is the next way to go yeah where it's just like um it's just like picasso right for for coaches you know just a little bit of this a little bit of that dial this down dial that up and as long as you could describe it with what you want as long as you had a method uh and the athlete didn't get hurt sure okay but it comes down to being able to rationalize and explain what you're doing why you're doing it and hopefully you're following some sort of progressive overload if that's if that's your goal but i think that coming back to the point which you just described where we're at i think with many endurance uh coaches and the overall philosophy is being able to um you know start with what is least specific and bring the athlete and train what is more specific

into that event just as a very general concept really can't go wrong with that most people understand that too that's why i like to present it like that and that's why i think that you know that one statement it's probably 15 years ago from dean and lindsey really resonated with me because i can explain that to anybody and they kind of get it right um okay that's enough about training intensity distribution you get the last one adam i want to know what you're into i'm always curious what is dangling in the back of adam's brain and this is a chance for me to publicly try to pull it out of you what is going on in adam's brain right now i mean there's a lot and i and i would be i'd be a liar to say that um it's just like a building aerobic capacity and how best to do that because everybody's talking about zone two and all this kind of stuff not to like jump on bandwagons or anything like that but as as i coach my like elite women that's i don't have any elite men right now but then as i coach my amateur folk it's like the the intensity and volume distribution are much different right between the two right and when i have people who are like i'm not i can't ride the trainer or i can't i can't do those intervals or whatever it's like all right well fine i'll give you four four four four

four four four three and then rest rest whatever it kind of like you know a very volume based overload if you're talking about hours hours yeah exactly and if i even like you know jokingly like bring this up okay five four four and for somebody who's training you know maybe eight to ten hours a week or something like that blow them up yeah right crush them right crush them right so it's like okay well if you can't do that volume we then need to do these intervals right and so you walk through the rationale of that but then it's like how do i get you know my amateur athletes to not only kind of buy into this aerobic capacity building but how i find time to do that and i think like what i'm what i'm trying to set up for people who can is just the concept of camps yeah camps to prepare them for what they're 22 because everybody's like stoked on 2022 like calendars are like more normative like people are getting excited and they're people got some huge um challenges going on but they they need the development right they need that volume and so full knowing that we need this volume how do i get it when everybody's like working remote and doing all this kind of stuff so my mind has been a little bit and how do i get my amateurs to build more aerobic capacity on less time and oh cue it over to you because it's like all you got is 10 hours all you got is 10 hours well so there's here you go here's your next uh here's your next training phenomenon to hit the airwaves and the

magazine pages is the we got to give it a fancy name the volume over the base no it could be camp because that's like it makes it sound like summer camp or something like that you got to give it like a technical name like zone two right it's kind of a technical name zone makes it seem seem somehow scientific not to diminish it at all but it gives it gives you that or so it's going to be the the volume a concentrated volume overload training which is a camp setup and so it's for the for the listeners to describe that since adam and i kind of like glossed over it we've always been in the situation with our training camps with our athletes and which we usually coach at where we have normal people that have a normal work life eight to five job they work 40 to 50 hours a week and they come to our training camps and regardless of what they're training for whether it's a running event or cycling event or triathlon event they can carve out three to four days and usually about triple their volume so if they're doing an hour and a half a day they can come in and do four and a half hours a day and training like how i did that math in my head right one and a half three and four and a half it's pretty good for me um and they handle it just fine and not only do they handle it just fine they come out the other end with like a month's worth of overload meaning they can kind of get like a month's worth of adaptation overload it's not the right word they can kind of get a month's worth of adaptation out of that three or four day period because that's better yeah because it's a it's so

concentrated right and b it's just a lot of volume going back to our earlier point where volume is is it's kind of the key i'm with you man i'm with you i got interviewed uh on for another podcast that came that just came out today is where we're is we're recording this uh it's a strength running podcast i'll leave a link in the show notes to it and he asked me just that uh in a different context so the context was how do you have how do you get people adapted to the up and down nature of trail and ultra running if they live in the flats so there's a lot of muscle damage right specifically on the eccentric component how do you actually do that i said listen if you don't live in the mountains you got to carve out a training camp and that's because the effect of that takes a low dose and you can also get a high concentration of dose kind of all in one shot and if you can time it like three to four weeks before your event you can take advantage of all the legacy of the eccentric adaptations that you're uh that you're getting so i think you're onto something there maybe we can like start up another llc and call it what did i just call it volume overload volume concentration overload incorporated or something like that dude we're just gonna call it coupling camp coupling camp um but but to that end i think for listeners as well it's you know i've been and this is no no marketing scheme okay um but this camp based thing it's it's fun people can do it you take your you can take your family with you or you go solo have a have a weekend to yourself this kind of thing but it is

it is what moves the needle if you're only doing 15 hours a week i mean at some point you just top out and to make this applicable to make this conversation applicable and you're looking at the sheer volume that van der poel's doing and you're like what no way he's superhuman well he doesn't have a job like there's nothing else to do his job is a sport right his job is a sport right and so when we when co coop and i have been working camps and we make we make you professional athletes for the weekend eat sleep train repeat right and it's it is astonishing what you're able to do when you have nothing else to do right that is absolutely true i mean it unfortunately today it's hard it's a little bit harder because our devices make it so accessible to kind of like get back to work and get back to yeah i mean we used to we used to be able to make that argument you remember we used to do camps where like we'd say oh well put your black put your blackberry down this will date the camp put your blackberry down for the next few days it'll do you a lot of good and and the devices weren't as addictive as they are i gotta be careful when i use that word they weren't as uh compelling to use as they are nowadays and um we can't get away with that statement anymore the devices are going to be there we kind of can't fight that battle but to add them to your point i'm no longer astonished at the volume increases that i can see in these environments and i think it's really freaking cool like i just when i when i see that and everybody gets scared when they see it on paper particularly

in a running perspective right because it's a little bit more problematic for the acute increases in volume but they look at it and they're like whoa whoa whoa like i'm running 10k a day you know i'm running 60 minutes a day you expect me to run four to five hours for three days in a row i mean and that's like they might as you might as well put them on mars or whatever it's that out of this world to them but i just say listen just trust me you know i make all the compelling arguments you're gonna you know eat sleep train repeat all that kind of stuff we're gonna have food and all this kind of jazz but when they get there when they get there and usually after the second day after they're super fatigued and they got to get up the next day and do it again they kind of get it and then i think it's the reason i think it's really neat is because then they have the confidence and also kind of like the skill set of how to set it up to diy it in the future so they're not reliant on me my calendar and my availability to do this camp forum they can kind of do it on there which makes it more powerful because they can do it more frequently and if you can carve that out like it just takes like three times a year super powerful like it's a super powerful training intervention to use and out of all the stuff that we just talked about that i'm thinking about it freaking glucose monitors and hydration sensors and power meters and whatever else we can come up with the simple training camp training camp is it's the sharpest that's the sharpest knife that's it damn

there's the business right there crushed it yeah i crushed it man cool that's a perfect place to put a pen in it as the cliche goes my friend yeah we're gonna do this more often let's do it i think next time we cannot because another thing that i really liked about that vanderpool is uh he so the whole process right but he capitalized the word the limit like like a proper noun yeah for sure but it's like the edge right go find the edge we've talked about right but like the limit and because he like madly respects the limit and you can see him like he's got this like little limiter this like the limit on one shoulder and like the give up on the other or something i don't know he's just like dealing with him we gotta talk about that i don't know do something definitely don't put this in your podcast no i'm gonna leave it in because it makes it fun uh adam if people want to follow you on social for the awesome content you put out which by the way you got to bring back more wko5 content man come on can i can i go into doing it i love it i know it's not the most engaging stuff in the world but come on man yeah okay all right so you're committing to not strava i'm gonna commit to more social media just for you um i think we would feel bad if there's there's some sort of ill effects on your professional or personal life because no i'll do less selfies more wko and it's gonna be awesome um but you guys so if people are interested in in particular one cool

piece that i just put on on instagram was me and one of my other athletes dj brew uh oh this is a funny story by the way i don't know if we have time coop but um so i gave him a one by 90 tempo and this guy's a sprint we're building up all this kind of stuff but he's a sprinter so a one by 90 minute interval like he was freaking out i don't know like a one by 45 like a while back and so i gave him one by 90 and he's like no i'm like yes i'm like all right i'm gonna do it too so but i kind of forgot about it right so when i saw i was like going through files i'm like oh dj's got this one by 90 i got to do this on saturday i'm gonna do it on the trainer blah blah however i was like busy where and i did like a couple group rides during i did like group ride tuesday wednesday thursday and then it like snowed so i'm like i'll just do an hour of tempo and then i'm just gonna like mail it in over the weekend right i forgot about the one by 90. so that is what people don't know when they have read this on my instagram thus far so i go into this one by 90 just super loaded up like four days of training going in dj blew it out of the water he was awesome because i brought him in fresh all this kind of stuff coach ap was on the struggle bus just like drinking all the hydrogels and fans and wahoos and everything to keep my mind off of this and so anyway i did a nice side-by-side comparison looking at heart rate decoupling power production power to weight ratio uh phenotype a rider all this kind of stuff so i did that you can find it on instagram at adam.pulford and then

i talk about all this kind of crazy stuff on the train right podcast which you can also find wherever you do podcasting stuff um apple podcast spotify google thingy so that's about where i'm active sometimes i just retweet stuff for coop and then facebook is weird to me so your podcast is good you and uh corinne do a great job with it i listen to it that should be a marker of your success but for the listeners out there if you want to know what i listen to it's adam corinne's podcast they do a great job yeah i appreciate that corinne corinne knocks out the park she's she's amazing so i'm just trying to keep up to her yeah yeah that's a hard that's a hard wheel to follow all right my friend we're gonna let you go thanks very much peace out thanks good bye all right folks there you have it there you go much thanks to adam for coming on the podcast today i really hope that brought you guys into the middle of a normal coaching conversation that we have all about shooting the stuff and what is new and what we are excited about i want to bring adam and some of our other coaches back on the podcast for more of these kind of like casual conversations about what is getting us excited in the endurance space today because i think that the colloquial nature of discussing those things and what we really think about it in an unfiltered fashion offers some nuggets and some tidbits of wisdom so put that as a note and i'll file it away for the future as i mentioned

during the outro of the podcast last week the KoopCast is just about to cross one million downloads or maybe it will have crossed it by the time this podcast actually comes out so thank you to each and every one of the listeners for making that happen i'm very humbled that that many downloads have occurred and this many people listen to this podcast week after week after week it is something that has exceeded my wildest expectations and i'm incredibly grateful to have this platform and you all are the centerpiece of that gratitude so thank you very much you can help this podcast out a lot by sharing it with your friends and your training partners and giving it a rating or review on apple podcast that helps the podcast out very very much it's not the easiest thing you get yet to get to you have to go to apple podcast scroll all the way to the bottom write a review but i'm incredibly appreciative of each one of those reviews that come across the wire so thank you thank you thank you very much that is it for today folks and as always we will see you out on the trails um um