Training for 100s with CTS Coaches Duncan Callahan and Chantelle Robitaille⎮KoopCast Episode 13

what's going on trail runners i am psyched for this edition of the KoopCast and i'm psyched for two reasons the first reason is i got to record the entirety of this whole podcast within the confines of my new van and that just has me tickled pink you can't tell right now but i'm grinning ear to ear and i just absolutely love it for those of you that have been following me on social media i bought a new convert new to me at least converted for transit van back in january and i've been taking some steps to upgrade it and really kind of putting it through the paces and this week i got to i got to take another step with it and i drove it up to gunnison to colorado to record this edition of the podcast the second reason i'm really psyched for this edition of the KoopCast is because i got to talk to two of our fantastic cts coaches duncan callahan and chantelle robitaille about what they're practically doing with their athletes right now nothing theoretical we're not going to talk about any studies or anything like that like what are they actually doing with two of their athletes at this moment in time right now which i think is completely relatable to you guys out there listening and you guys can take away things that you can literally use in your in your training tomorrow uh chantelle and duncan are two of our cts

coaches and they've been with us for a few years now chantelle has a master's in high altitude exercise physiology that she got from western state up here in gunnison colorado where i'm recording this podcast she is wicked smart she also speaks french and japanese and german did you guys know that we have some coaches that that are multilingual here uh she lived abroad for a number of years originally hailing from canada and she always brings a wealth just a wealth of scientific knowledge and expertise and practical knowledge to the table duncan a lot of you guys will remember he's a two-time winner of the leadville trail 100 yeah two-time winner of the leadville trail 100 and has worked with all different types of athletes from trail runners to nordic skiers he's got a fantastic program here at the university uh here in gunnison where they have a full-on you know outdoor nordic ski team they also do ultra running as well and hopefully i can get some of the uh some of those fine young men and women on the podcast to really discuss how they got into trail running so i brought both of these coaches together to talk about what they are doing with a couple of their athletes right now so they picked two athletes at random and both of these athletes are training for a hundred 100 mile races chantelle's athlete is training for a hundred mile race in april and duncan's athlete is training for the leadville trail 100 in august and they went through from a very practical perspective what their athletes are literally

doing right now to get ready for these events so if you're training for a hundred miler in april or you're training for a hundred mile in the middle of summer there's a lot of learning lessons here and you can take some of these things and you can literally apply it to your training right now so have a listen buckle up here we go coach chantelle coach duncan on this episode of the KoopCast do you want a farcle for it farcle what is farcle you don't know what a farcle is you've never heard of that word negative it's a it's it's uh it's a it might be a texas thing it's a synonym for rochambeau oh i've never heard of it i think you should rochambeau for it since you understand but we gotta go we gotta go rock and poe because that's no no it's three japanese do you use the g's the euro three yeah the american three oh my goodness when we're so sometimes when we're doing this virtually yeah and we have three people i'll assign somebody to be number one somebody to be number two and somebody to be number three and that way we can all look at each other and go you know one that means i want to talk two that means the person across from me needs to talk and then three that means the person on the phone needs to talk on the computer okay and uh we're doing this with uh steph and adam the other day and steph picked the euro three because she spent so much time in france and it's kind of a francophile by now yeah but we were looking at the only reason i know the euro three is because my favorite nba player is dirk nowitzki ah there you go and you would hold that up three

just how long have you lived here you don't know what an american three is chanteau it's not awkward it's so awkward it it hurts you know you know i know it's awkward that's awkward no i'm straining that's just normal yeah no index finger middle finger and then your ring finger and you want to take yous out of things and no yeah okay yeah all right let's get started for it all right so we're gonna go one two three shoot okay none of this one two shoot crap okay one two three ready one two three shoot yeah tie one two three shoot all right chantel wins chantel you get to go first all right who you got i have um a woman who's in her mid 30s and she has i've been training her since last year so it's super fun to have a little bit of a long-term relationship with her last year she did her first 50 miler and this year she is planning for her first 100 miler with a potential plan to do a second one this year as well and the first one will be in april and it's the umstead 100 in south carolina perfect so what is she doing right now so in the this is going to come out the first week of february second week of february what is she going to be doing at that moment in time well her race is in april so she'll be oh it'll be coming up quick it'll be coming up pretty quick right now she is unfortunately rehabbing a little bit she has had a little bit of plantar fasciitis

problem um but it's coincided with her also having the flu so it's been a bit of a force one two punch yeah forced rest um but um she's she was last week starting a bit of running back um we were doing some run walk intervals and some other gym training to keep her brain on top of things and keep her going uh but she's still excited still ready and i think we'll still we'll still be on track but i think the the training is going to be a little bit touch and go obviously because of the the injury we want to keep her healthy throughout the season not just you know surviving her hundred miler but actually enjoying it for sure for sure okay so what what what in february are going to be like the main things that you're going to try to accomplish with her um there are a number of things that we want to work on obviously she accomplished a lot of um positive things last year you know dialing in nutrition um figuring out how much rest she needs how much training stress she can handle and a lot of really positive um mental stuff you know really improving her mental game and and um dealing with problems couple things that we still need to work on are night running because she gets a little bit freaked out um so that's definitely in the plans and there's some pretty cool events happening in south carolina that she's lined up to do so she'll actually have some um she's got some events where she'll be on the actual race course doing shorter distance races

and also some training runs um there's also a specific um night race that she's planning to do and then a little bit of night running planned with friends so those are some big things we need to work on aside from training just from the mental side of things let's talk about night running for just a little bit because that's something a lot of runners have either trepidation with or they just don't do it and then they get to race day and they're like don't you 200 lumen headlamp or 150 lumen headlamp and how long is this thing gonna last like what specific with what specifically with her is the trepidation part of the night running so we dialed in the gear part which is great um there was a little night run that she did uh back in the fall and that was a it was a four hour night run and it wasn't you know through the night but that was a good opportunity to like build up a little bit of confidence realize she's gonna have to slow down um realize that it's gonna things are gonna look different and to test out different headlamps and what's the setup so she's got um she's got a black diamond headlamp now that she's comfortable with and can see well okay um then she did a 100k and that was going into the night after 14 hours and that's where she started freaking out again no one was in sight she couldn't see anyone she worried she was getting lost you know the whole panic cycle alone yeah i'm all alone here and suddenly couldn't breathe well and you know ended up unfortunately dropping from the race so you know it's it's not a terrible thing because it's a good

way to see how you do react right so we talked through what are some what are some ways she can get through that you know what could you do differently the next time so maybe you know just calm yourself down realize that you probably are on track don't let your brain get away with you you know from you you can hang out for a while and see if someone else comes along but you know the best you know you can wait a little bit but the best thing is to keep yourself going to that next aid station and then reassess maybe you can leave with someone else but the big thing for her was to work up confidence and realize she's going to need a pacer because she was planning to do the race without one and now we know that she definitively needs to have a pacer with her yeah and that's the quintessential uh uh use of a pacer as a safety runner right which is a lot which a lot of races will actually describe their pacers as because you're really not pacing the athlete it's like pri it's primarily a safety thing yeah absolutely did you ever tinker around tinker around when you're going through the gear piece of it with just like different different like level different lumen levels of light setups because i've i've found like a lot of athletes that are like nervous about running at night sometimes just paying the weight penalty and getting a super bright like 700 lumen headlamp that you have to swap the batteries out every four hours on for whatever reason that amount of light just brings the comfort level or just enhances the comfort level that the athlete has from the

the being alone aspect yeah i know she did get i mean i had given her some suggestions about ones and they were strong ones and in the end i can't remember which one she chose but she felt she felt comfortable with the light she had i think it was just the oh my gosh i'm alone i don't see anyone i think i'm lost this is horrible everything you know we've all been there we've all been there um and then it was just kind of tough to to rein herself in from that once the you know once the panic situation started well an april race is going to have a lot of nighttime yeah as well it's not like a summer race where you know you might have nine or maybe ten hours of nighttime or something like that like she's realistically going to have 12 hours yeah the good thing about this race is they allow they allow pacers by time of day so by 6 p.m you can have a pacer um or you know five laps it's eight laps total this race so by 6 p.m you can have a pacer so that's really comforting you know to to remember well i'm sure the loop aspect too is going to be comforting for her as well because she'll see the same pieces in the daytime yeah and then she'll see them at night and then the whole i don't know where i am i think i'm lost is a little bit reduced and they don't reverse each time you know you're doing the same loop in the same direction every time so since she's had you know something i that i think is a little bit different that i've done with this athlete that i've kind of carried on for a few others is you know she planned to do this race long in advance she's a very organized detail oriented woman so i asked her to put put all her fears and

all her concerns about doing a hundred miler into a spreadsheet because she's a spreadsheet person and just keep adding keep adding on to it you know when you think of something instead of just carrying it around stick that thought somewhere and then we'll we'll deal with it and we speak every week so we go through the list and see like what is still pending and then we think about like okay these are the things here's how we're gonna attack those little monsters and so little by little you know we've been building confidence for this over the last many months giving her either training opportunities where she can practice those things that are that she thinks are going to be difficult or she can you know in advance know what her nutrition strategy is going to be that she's going to need pacers who they're going to be etc and then there's no more need to worry about that stuff because you can see it in black and white that it's it's dealt with it's not a problem and you can focus on the things that really matter and for her that's been actually really helpful that's so cool it's like a fear and adversity checklist yeah essentially so she goes through it and then has some sort of exercise or some sort of training opportunity checks that fear or adversity off the list and then you can go back to it later as a coach and say listen see you did this yeah you're gonna be fine we've practiced this you're good oh cool awesome so you've got that you got your night running yeah what else are the focus is going to be focuses or folk eyes folk eye folk eye folk eye okay definitely correct okay even for americans perfect yeah americans were terrible at grammar what are the other folk eye in the last eight weeks leading up to this hunter model so

preparing for the this you know preparing for the specifics of this event so it's a it's a looped course course um it's 12 and a half mile laps so they do eight of those and it's about a thousand feet of gain each lap um it's also a gravel course so being you know being specific so she lives where she luckily can she's already scoped out like all the different gravel upper gravel running opportunities that she has so we can make it specific and we can have you know very similar course elevations that she can practice on and she's also got i think two more opportunities to go they have these training runs for this race which is great and they go and they run they run a couple of you know they run a couple of laps and it's just you know self-support they got a table in the middle you put your stuff down and and you go run um and one of those is going to be at night which is going to be super helpful but otherwise her um training is going to be specifically on gravel even though she last year got to run on a lot of really fun gnarly trails and really got a lot of good confidence built up uh running up and downhill and running on varied terrain this is going to be a lot different uh preparation than that how much do you think the course recon actually plays into this whole final preparation period because that's a strategy a lot of athletes undertake uh irrespective of whether they live close to the course or not is they're training for a hundred miler and they live somewhere else they come out to colorado or california or whatever six eight weeks before the race and they do 50 miles sometimes even

100k of the course and you see that like time and time again as part of the preparation process and in adhering to the principle of specificity i think that that's a really smart way to do it but a lot of times it's just not possible logistics you can't get out there you don't have the timing sometimes some sort of like life situation butts up against when you're going to go out there you get sick or you have some you know event to graduation actually that that uh prohibits a lot of athletes from going out to experience their course their kids graduate from high school or college or whatever it's always right around this critical time so how much do you think that that play how much do you think that's going to play a part in your athletes preparation and if you didn't have that would you replace it with anything different for this particular athlete um because she's had you know experiences in the past of having you know something negative happens and you know letting that get carried away and that's something that she's i'm so proud of her how she's managed to reign that in over this past year you know when she has a has a negative thought how she can now talk herself back down from that thought and keep going and stay positive um because this is such a big thing for her i think for this particular athlete you know she's in a lucky situation so that's going to be some added confidence um but is it necessary not really i mean i have athletes who spend a lot of time training

on treadmills because that's all they have the opportunity to do and they can you know some of them are winning races and they're spending a large percentage of their time on treadmills or on terrain that is vastly different from what they're going to race on so it's a nicety not a necessity to have yeah it's a nice to have not a must have perfect and there's a lot of other races that are going around around this april time frame uh especially 100 mile races that i think athletes have a hard time like wrapping their training heads around it because of the time of year you know you think about the december january time frame particularly for athletes that live in like mountainous or colder areas their training gets pinched in by their their environment yet they've got this 100 mile event coming up in april this happens with hurt which just went on over last weekend a lot where it's a january race and all these mountain athletes want to go to it because it's a burly gnarly mountain race but they get their training gets pinched because in october november and december winter starts falling uh kind of kind of falling but there are more and more hundred milers in this april time frame that start to take on that same kind of that same same vibe the zion 100 is one that kind of comes to mind that that i've done have you done zion i have not but we've had athletes from the western collegiate team uh have done that and so we see that here all the time yeah people trying to train in february in gunnison is pretty hard and so and so with those athletes in particular you mentioned treadmill running and fitness always matters the most even if you can't get out and do the most precise amount of

elevation gain elevation loss what are some other strategies for athletes that are preparing for 100 mile events in this april may time frame that might get their training limited by some environmental factor what are some of the things that they can do to help overcome that i think the the key thing you mentioned is fitness matters right so if you are able to run on a treadmill then that's what you do that's what you use and then also enjoy where you live so if you're a mountain athlete a june race might feel early because you're you know your your time frame to run on trails you know about that yeah june race feels early for gunnison june race is really early for where we live here in gunnison right so you know that can feel early so what can you do maybe there are some trips you know are there some trails that you can access are there some cross-country ski trails that you can run on do you cross-country ski i mean that's a great that's a great um exercise as well or people who get into ski mountaineering you know for people who live here typically they swap their running shoes for skis and that's a fantastic way to not maintain fitness because who wants to maintain fitness but to build fitness and challenge your body in a slightly different way so that you're you're ready you know once you can access your trails yeah and the other thing that i always encourage athletes to think about particularly at the 100 mile distance is the pace is usually so slow that even if you're just slogging around on trails even on snowshoes yeah you're still likely moving faster than what you are during the

race just because the distance is so much longer so it's not a you don't lose that speed component in fact it's usually the opposite i mean usually with 100 mile races we talk about this a lot in our coaching group you're always running in an over speed condition even on the recovery runs you're always running in an over speed condition except for the like the very very very very best right in the fastest races which are you know there might be five people but that actually applies to anomalies yeah very much well anomalous for two reasons the person and then the race has to be really really fast as well track race you know flat 100 mile or something like that and so so i always encourage athletes that when the winter comes around and they like they complain about their normalized graded pace getting slower or their training stress scores not being as high as they are because the terrain is slowing them down the snow and ice is slowing them down you just show them how like how how slow they actually are with all due respect and how slow yeah how slow they are in 100 even 100k and then it starts to make sense they're still running two minutes per mile three minutes four minutes five minutes per mile faster on most training runs yeah and they will during the race that's a good reminder you know if you're going out for a three-hour training run you don't i don't don't want you to go out and run your three-hour pace i want you to think about you know realistically what's your 50 mile pace going to be what's your 100 mile pace going to be so you know don't have to you don't have to get out there and push as hard as possible for you know pace wise get out there and work at the effort that you should be

working the effort level that you should be working it's so hard to get athletes to do that yeah ego wise it's tough for sure you know when you're looking at looking at those numbers especially for athletes that are very data driven you know that it's it's you have to get them away from that a little bit and tune into their body and their body's performance of where they're at and not just look at the numbers because the numbers are yeah the numbers are there and the numbers are important but they don't represent the whole picture so just as a practical example with this particular athlete she's going to average what what how many minutes per mile during the race 12 maybe at the at the fastest end at the very at the very very fastest end so let's just say let's give it a range right 12 to 14 12 to 14 yeah during during training she's going to average what 10 to 12 yeah so you're you're easily talking about 10 or 15 faster during any one day of training maybe even 20 faster during any one day of training consistently day after day after day after day as they are during the race you can't think of another endurance application where that's the case like even in an ironman triathlon if you even took the individual components all of those athletes for their endurance days are training either at or slower than what they're doing on race day and ultra running it's the opposite yeah which has always been such a fascinating proposition yeah right i mean i have some athletes a few of them that do their they do ultra running at certain times of the year and then they do also some pretty fast marathon running at certain times of the year and

that's really tricky because that's a whole mindset shift right to their to their training especially when they've been you know intensively training for a marathon and they're looking for a pretty fast time and then now we switch over to ultra running and then you know the we're not going by pace anymore you know we're not prescribing by pace anymore we're not going hard quite as often and pace in general is slowing down and that's another thing that can be from a from an ego perspective right looking at those numbers can be like oh my gosh i'm not as fit now in july as i was in april preparing for that marathon but that's that's not the case it's it's different it's different preparation different kind of race different kind of strategy and it requires a complete mind shift yeah i i couldn't agree more chantelle and i think a lot of a lot of that gets wrapped up or a lot of athletes get wrapped up in that that come from a marathon or a multi-sport background because they're used to this different training paradigm they're used to this training paradigm where you do all of your slow like base miles in the winter and then you ratchet up the intensity in spring and then you have super high intensity and then you race in the middle of summer and so the training arc generally goes from low intensity to high intensity because the race is the highest intensity piece of the whole proposition or the races during the summer and ultra running it's the opposite where the racing is the lowest intensity proposition that you're going to have in the entire thing i mean a hundred mile race is for almost

everybody the lowest intensity activity that they're going to it's not easy it's the lowest intensity activity that they're going to do for their entire training you know for their entire training unless they're sitting on unless you count sitting on the couch right that would be a lot which you know there's a lot of sitting down and a hundred mile races as well sitting and noshing yeah but you're absolutely right that that psyche i think athletes should be mindful during the last eight weeks of of of of hundred mile training that yeah it's okay to go a little bit slower it's okay to you know slow down your pace slow down your intensity because it's more specific to the event okay so what else is this athlete doing the last eight weeks the last eight weeks also you know dialing in nutrition again a little bit um this athlete also um she struggled a few at a few instances with um breathing not just from you know i mentioned when she was had that emotional time during the run but also had some difficulties breathing so we've also worked on that um she had some allergy testing done um she's got some environmental allergies that she can control well uh but also she found out about some food allergies she had no idea about like something even as common as uh egg whites and she was eating a ton of eggs and those you know rx bars so sometimes also you know deal if you're struggling with something and you're you know don't give up on a problem you know if you keep having it um just get some answers so now uh we are working a little bit on nutrition a little bit you know daily nutrition to make sure that

she's eating enough because now she's had to cut out things from her diet that were absolute staples so you know we're working on that uh that's real i don't want to interrupt you that's really hard when the training volume is high like making a dietary change yeah either in this time it's prompted by by by by an allergy but in other times it's just prompted by i want to change my diet for whatever other reason because you're used to consuming a certain amount of calories with with the food stuffs that you like yeah and if you have to eliminate one of those types of food stuffs a lot of times you forget that you have to replace those calories with something else and when the training demands are really high that becomes quite problematic for for an athlete they can't recover they can't recover as fast they might even increase their susceptibility for injury they might not adapt to the training right we know that low caloric states you don't adapt as well to the training so like watching the diet like watching your diet in the last eight weeks of training is just incredibly important for athletes and especially when they have to make any sort of dietary change that's prompted by whatever yeah so that's that's been kind of tricky so that you know i mentioned like last year we did a lot of work to find training nutrition and race nutrition that works well so that's not going to impact that because we found some specific things that really worked well for her and learning you know what is safe to eat from an aid station table so she's quite used to now preparing her own stuff for a race and for her 100 mile race because there's only there's one aid station that's on the

course where you can have your own drop bag or box and then the second one is where your crew is so that's going to be a no-brainer for her but really for the training as the training is you know ramping up in those final eight weeks my concern is her daily nutrition making sure that she's getting proper you know she's properly fueled for the workouts after the workouts and in between you know especially since there are some real staple things that she's always relied on that now she can't have so now she's been working to kind of track her nutrition what she's taking in how much um and that'll you know go along the way trying to find new things that that work and that she enjoys eating you know you trying to be isocaloric with her during these last eight weeks yeah yeah that's spot on yeah i mean we we've seen it a lot where athletes they try to drop their last two to three pounds in the last month of training and that's the worst time to do it no it's the absolute worst time to do it because your training's the hardest and you want the adaptations from training and you kind of like automatically put a governor on those adaptations by inducing a negative caloric balance yeah that would that for me would be a that for me would be a warning sign if we saw that the weight was dropping we definitely do not want to see the weight dropping we want it to stay we want it to stay pretty consistent so that we know she's getting enough calories and that's you know that's working for her body and paying attention you know how does that if is there any changes in mood sleep or anything like that you know with making a

shift those kind of things can happen and aren't really conducive to good recovery or good energy state when training you know what's really interesting is there's not there's no dialogue about oh we're gonna do these types of intervals we're gonna increase fitness over here we're gonna improve your vo2 max there it's all like really preparation specific like really race specific stuff which i think is just spot on yeah i think eight weeks out that's where you need to be that other all that all those other things that comes well well before it but in eight weeks we're we've got the eye on the prize now and we're we're preparing for that race but i mean it's especially interesting because the training hasn't been perfect going into it no right you had an injury you had an illness and you had the that injury and that illness with this athlete and uh you know which you could consider all training is critical but but a pretty critical time you know 12 weeks out what's the time frame on that 16 weeks 12 weeks out yeah 12 and that's that's when you know training should kind of be hot and heavy at that point so still even despite that you're using like you and the athlete are using like really good judgment not to like cram and force feed the training in like the last six weeks we can't go backwards you know we can't go backwards what's what's done is done and right now the biggest you know also because she's recovering from an injury this would be the last time the last time you want to try and cram in extra intensity or extra workouts because now the focus is showing up to the start line healthy and and ready you know so it might not be the best time but you know for a first 100 miler

where the athlete is hoping to finish she's not putting any undue stress on herself and i think that's a big one for people doing their first 100 miler because as much as you prepare stuff is going to happen that you don't anticipate and so not you know not putting too much pressure on yourself is i think also important that takes a lot of confidence and i don't think a lot of athletes and coaches appreciate that like the the the the the athlete's ability to resist the urge to cram in more training in the last four to six weeks of preparation not only for a hundred miler but their first hundred miler like the fact that she's just kind of like okay like i'm gonna back off i'm just gonna do the things that are specific to the event i don't need to cram in training that that either shows a lot of like really good coaching by you i think you should take some credit for that but also it shows like the athlete has developed a lot of confidence through the entirety of the training process because we've all seen this as coaches where you know athletes will start to push the panic button four weeks out from the event and go oh my god i haven't done enough i feel underprepared i'm missing this i'm missing that i need to go on a 70 mile long run yep chronic nature of training it's there i mean that this is recognition of the fact that this person's got a a history of training and fitness right yeah and i mean we could take that chronic nature of training dialogue a bunch of different ways i mean people always ask i've never written a few articles about this about what your longest long run should be like the one single long run into but to i i i tend to flip questions like

this around a lot in a similar way i think that's the wrong question to ask it's not what is the longest long run is what is the total amount of training that you can handle throughout the entire arc of training six months nine months kind of whatever it is if you're focused on that one long run being the difference between 45 and 50 miles whatever it is that's only a five mile difference in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles of training that you will actually do in preparation for the actual event yeah and so if you can remember that chronic nature of training duncan as you as as you just mentioned it lends to the last six to eight weeks being one which you can focus on all of the things that are specific to the event and not push the fitness panic button yeah and i think that's the good thing with this with this particular athlete i've i've worked with her for now for over a year so i think i know what she's capable of and i think she's also developed trust in me as her coach you know we we speak every week she asks a lot of good questions she is probably like a textbook athlete that you'd want to have she really care you know she really cares about what she's doing she asks really insightful questions and she does the work she works really hard if i'm asking her to take it easy she'll take it easy because she knows why she needs to take it easy if she needs to go hard she understands why she's going hard and what the physiological benefit is that we're trying to get out of it so now that she's had an injury and she's been working with a physical therapist and you know

i'm following those particular guidelines and you know mentally it's hard because you're used to running you know a minimum of 10 15 hours a week so she's putting in a little bit more gym time doing a little bit of swimming doing other things to to help her feel like she's working towards her overall progress and i think that's helping her have the confidence in trusting the big picture training not just what's happening right now well i guarantee you there are people that are going to be listening to this right now that are in a similar situation they've got a big race coming up in april they got dinged up in january or in december and they're kind of wanting to know what to do next this this provides a really good blueprint for that but also if you just phase shift the timeline into the summer and let's say it's a july august race right you're training for leadville trail 100 we're going to talk about that in a second training for the leadville trail 100 or yeah or even uh something like western states or uh never summer or something like that i'm picking a lot of mountain uh races in june yeah kettle moraine yeah exactly if you phase shift everything down just a couple of months there are going to be other athletes that are in the first part of this situation maybe they get a little bit dinged up or have something life-wise happen where training is interrupted in february or march and so i think also a lot of those learning lessons if you take them now and you learn how to do how you're going to do it right four or five weeks from now you can do the the right things in the present to set that up

correctly and that's make sure you get get over your injury do the work as you mentioned and when you do the work then you'll actually do the recovery and it all falls follows from there yeah and don't panic don't panic it's just running yeah panic panic panic never made anybody a dime as warren buffett is famous for saying and it never made anybody a very good runner yeah that's right fair enough okay so where are the highlights chantelle let's try to wrap it up in 30 seconds the highlights trust your training uh be realistic with where you're at don't rush back too soon don't do too much too fast uh listen to your coach shameless plug for all of us um but really just you know just trust yourself and realize that those you know if you are injured those negative emotions are going to come up you know deal with them but don't let those negative emotions push you to causing yourself further harm and realizing that you know particularly for people preparing for big you know long races hundred milers your training is you know that's a long you got to play the long game with your race strategy training is training is the same yeah the long game once again that's just one of those things that's timeless especially in ultra running like if you just think about things on a sometimes even two or three years yeah and now with the lotteries it's kind of forcing people to think about things like in a multi-year five years six years eight years and then yeah i don't think that that's the worst

thing in the world to think about training and preparation for an arduous event over that type of time course because we see the opposite we see the opposite of that with the leadville trail 100 which just you're duncan you're gonna talk about they just had their lottery this weekend one of the reasons that they have a notoriously terrible finish rate it's around 50 every year is just because people go into it with little preparation not understanding what they're undertaking it gets a lot of first time hundred milers because they've you know read born to run or they've seen this movie it's got a lot of like sex appeal to it and stuff like that and they just neglect the training process and the main way that they neglect it is from a like a totality of training they probably do a shit ton of training in the last eight weeks but they don't not the right kind they're not the right kind but they don't do a lot of training over the course of a year and that's what they've all watched indulgence from because i would say we ran a thousand miles in five weeks yeah yeah and that's all you need is a thousand miles in five weeks but what people don't realize and you and i have you know a very keen memory of this be living in colorado springs seeing everything that happened before that five weeks that's right yeah that from a training perspective is a bigger part of the story than the sexy five weeks of 200 mile weeks running with your shirt off in the sun and you know man so good looking though i've mentioned tony too many times on this podcast not to have him on you know you know

to get him yeah okay let's talk about leadville donkin leadville is very near and dear to your heart yeah near and dear to my heart you guys gave me grief for selecting a athlete doing leadville but i you know i part of the reason why i selected this athlete was you know it's in in some ways a lot of my rocky mountain athletes people from the rocky mountain west are gearing up for either leadville or another late summer early fall hundred so i think there's some crossover there and then this individual i mean he represents uh you know a big swath of the demographic i work with too right so you know mid 40s couple kids too many jobs you know too much going on uh loves to run doesn't love structure uh you know so i i think this is pretty it's one of the reasons why i selected this athlete so uh this guy uh front range of colorado uh early 40s i think he's 42 i think he's turning 43 in a week so let's call him 43 because i think this pod will come out after he turns 43 he'll be 43 on race day for sure yeah on race day he'll be 43 that's still early 40s it is it is so thankfully thankfully i'm getting there we're not quite there yet you got some new gray in your beard i just noticed i do i'm looking a little rugged it's uh well it used to just be kind of like more like onesie twosie gray hairs but now you've got like a pretty solid like maturity patch there this is the first year i've grown out the facial hair it's a little ridiculous but uh i'm liking it i'm liking it i'll keep it

we'll keep it until may and then we'll see i'll make a decision in there you go so uh so this athlete this is going to be his third 100 uh ledville is going to be his third 100 miler in 2020 uh this past year he did another colorado 100 uh run rabbit run went went decent had some good training i've been working with him since january so a little over a year ago uh had good training good consistency uh had some some issues and some flaws with race day nutrition which we can get into a little bit uh but successfully completed run rabbit run uh you know top of the final third of the the race you know so uh you know back of the middle of the pack put to you that way and my wife always calls herself a front of the middle of the pack front of the middle yeah yeah i'm like that's you're dividing you're splitting the hair too fine there you're it's mid pack mid pack front of the pack back of the pack this guy's thirds evenly if you get any more granular than that yeah it's just well i think i've heard this athlete say he aspires to be a front of the mid pack runner he was bummed that he was a back of the mid pack runner in his last 100 so so we're working and so you know run rabbit run uh mid-september and then from there he had a had a small you know regional 50k in third week in october and then from there went to uh you know had a few weeks off and then went into about six seven weeks of unstructured simple running okay you know so i'm trying to paint the picture of

where we are now got it got it so uh not much of a injury history little things here and there but nothing that's forced to lay off uh successfully completed two summers of ultra running now two seasons complete 100 in september uh some mile training and then uh some recovery and then some simple running uh up until about the new year okay so he's getting back into it he's getting back into it but he wasn't injured wasn't sick wasn't chronically fatigued uh has maintained motivation and just you know just had that down time period which i advised and he was into but still you got a lot of time between now a lot of time in august a lot of time and august towards the end of august yeah yeah yeah yeah so we've got you know seven plus months yeah and uh looking at the rest look looking at the rest of his race schedule he's got a uh he wants to do a 50k in march uh wants to do uh i'm not sure if he signed up for this yet the the north fork 50 in june um and i'm i'm not sure if we're going back and forth on 50k versus 50 mile and then wants to do silver rush in july in leadville and then go to the 100 again in august so um so that kind of maps out the schedule uh we haven't talked you know small local races yet in terms of you know trail marathon or 50ks as training but those are the four events that's a pretty prototypical build up 50k 50 mile 100 mile yeah all six weeks apart or something like that yep he's pretty prudent in that regard and you know i i i definitely am an

agreement so uh so that's where we are and so right now you know years ago i i would think that the prevailing wisdom for somebody getting ready for leadville was you just run a bunch in winter then you get to summer and you just run a bunch more and then right i mean i don't know if that was just me or four weeks yeah you're pretty pretty successful with that yeah yeah but knock it um but i think and i alluded earlier this guy he's not really into structure doesn't like intervals and like tempos anything like that so he's been getting a lot better and so right now what we're doing again he's healthy we've kind of worked into uh an interval phase here with some vo2 max intervals three to four weeks uh at that currently we might extend that a week or two well just give a typical workout of that yeah four by four minutes uh you know hard uh to to put it uh uh simply four minutes as hard as you can go four minutes almost as hard as you can go how about that 90 95 yeah got it uh you know five by three minutes those sorts of things doing a couple of those a week keeping the long run super moderate now uh i think we probably had two and a quarter hours uh we'll probably get up to two and a half hours based on his schedule but pretty moderate long run and then he's probably like 10 hours a week total if i'm adding that up yeah between nine and 11 hours and perfect yep okay and uh and to paint that picture during his his time in november and december when he was just doing simple running he was running six eight hours a week you know without any structure so that

kind of sets up where he is now and and i think he's liking it i mean i think so far so good uh this is you're having him do like super high intensity right now yeah just just mixing it up and honestly i know right i mean clearly there's there's physiological benefit and you know mechanical efficiency benefit and all these things um there's the mental benefit of mixing it up he's doing some of his runs on a treadmill and instead of just hopping on a treadmill for an 11 mile you know hour 25 he's he's getting in some uh some structure he's getting in some intervals and sweating a little harder on a treadmill and he says it's fun you know we'll talk to me in march and we'll see how it goes um yeah so i think i think that's an important uh distinction it's it's adding some variety to his training um i think it may be too early to see any adaptation from that and he's never done any high intensity or he's just adverse to it he's adverse to it last year we got into tempo uh stuff quite a bit i don't think i uh looking back last night and prep for this i don't think i had him doing any vo2 max intervals last year and what's it what before he got in you said he's been doing trail and ultra running for a couple of years correct his third year this is his third year what was the sport background before that did a lot of road running okay okay not a ton of miles more i maybe called more has he said this maybe more of a social road runner okay you know just love doing the local 10ks did a couple marathons here and here and there but nothing you know uh nothing that was uh truly successful but he didn't do any like high intensity stuff during that road running time which would be somewhat atypical now he just

ran who's just runner played uh played the cross 25 years ago in high school and college you know so he's got high intensity he's got an athletic background he's probably got some explosion and pop to him those sorts of things but you know a decade of atrophy as he would refer to it as led to him coming back to running you know but so what would you guess because you haven't gone through the whole phase yet what would you guess is the outcome of this first high intensity phase so first off you're doing this high intensity work and you're gonna do it for how long uh uh three to five weeks for this vo2 max phase and then then to be determined i might extend it if he's if he's liking it might extend a week or two more um and then i think we'll probably transition into as we get into mid-february which i think when this is coming out uh we'll probably try to get uh we're gonna need to get that long run up a little bit as we get ready for he's gonna do behind the rocks and march 20th or so so we get the long run up uh you know two to three hours and then three to four hours and then you know we'll see where it stands based on consistency i like the fact that you're not guessing on whether or not you're gonna do a second phase right now right because a lot of times we've all been through this with athletes who don't have any high intensity experience right sometimes just just two weeks i mean you're gonna do it for maybe four weeks you haven't seen quite yet it might be sometimes just two weeks is enough right and then you have to back off right and then maybe do it again or just maybe abandon it because you've gotten so much adaptation out of those couple weeks that you know you might want to switch to to something else at that point and i think that with athletes that that have an endurance background but not necessarily a structured

training background right they see improvements for maybe four or five or six years it sounds like this is this athlete is fitting this prototype still in that but but then after that after that point in time that improvement starts to plateau right and you have to do something different right you might not necessarily have to do anything more or even more intense but sometimes just the novelty of the intensity or of the training that you're actually doing provides some sort of stimulus and here he's got he's got you know double bang for his buck he's getting novelty because he hasn't done the high intensity that's right but also the high intensity even if he had been doing all that would probably provide some additional benefit some benefit yeah yeah so it's it's good we're in week three of it now and uh like i said he's been he's been enjoying it so that's good so far so what so okay so you've got an either or proposition coming up you're either going to repeat right that high intensity phase or you're going to move to something different right what are the what are the things that are going to tell you which direction to go right uh well a couple things and and again i haven't heard this yet from the athlete but um you know what is the perceived exertion at a at a similar pace on similar terrain you know is he perceiving himself as working less hard is the running getting easier on a standard 90 minute run around the neighborhood if the if the answer is yes and then you know that's a simple way of determining we're making some sort of adaptation um if the answer is no then are we doing too too much

of that intensity which i don't think we are uh and and in that case are we gonna you know make a change um and if and if not then uh and then the novelty factor does the novelty factor wear off do we have to change something else yeah i'm over this already yeah and then weather factors in a little bit too right i mean if there's if there's ice and snow on the ground outside uh you know i'll probably keep him a little shorter on the treadmill um shorter segments you know if it's if he's got some dry running available outside on you know gravel or something we might go into a tempo segment and put him outside uh if he wants to you know so um a lot of factors going into yeah i guess i guess that's what i was kind of getting at it's not just one thing right that you look at in a stoplight fashion you know green means go yellow means pause yeah red means stop there's a few things that you're looking at that'll tell you okay we need to repeat this high intensity stuff or we need to go on to something different correct yep yeah yep good so you got your three weeks into it right now of this phase yeah of this phase yeah you don't quite know you don't quite have the whole entire picture painted in terms of what the athlete feedback is but if you were to prognosticate on it well it's gonna be if i were to prognosticate uh right around uh you know 10th or so i think monday is the 10th of february starting that week we'll probably come out of a vo2 max interval phase we'll reprioritize building the long run and we'll move uh we'll move the intensity to either steady state or tempo something

less intense longer duration maybe some more variability if we can get them outside for it um you know that that's in my initial notes with this athlete was i imagine we're going to be doing that so classic reduce the intensity increase the volume of intensity with tempo you're going from like 16 minutes of work to 40 or 60 minutes of work probably 30 minutes of work a week to 60 minutes of work a week yeah perfect yeah and then increasing the overall volume classic volume intensity trade-off correct so when so you've got you've obviously got some sort of long-term plan going on with this athlete right at what point do you start incorporating some of the race specific stuff that chantelle was mentioning earlier in terms of nutrition planning making sure that he can run at night getting out on the course and things like that well i think we're he and i talked we're just gonna wing it just kidding we're not gonna be uh you know going in the spring like i said i mean with run rabbit run uh in his uh behind him in the rearview mirror and i believe his first runners before he started working with me uh was javelina um in both cases he's run through the night right um and in uh so he's got some night experience he doesn't seem that much trepidation about running at night now if you live in colorado springs you might you know some some rough areas over there i know you've talked about this coop jesus so bad now i posted something on instagram last week on goal camp road which is like one of my staple roads that i run on it's all right it's a total dump and you know not to go off on too much of a non-training tangent here

but the the volunteer community in colorado springs is fantastic anytime we have anytime we have a trail building activity or trail cleaning activity for any of the organizations there of which there's probably a dozen immediately it gets full and we have to turn people away because we can only handle so many volunteers on one day despite that this one area in colorado springs up shine canyon all on gold camp road just can just gets trashed and it gets trashed by idiots that are you know they're throwing tires down onto the trail i found a rare conditioner refrigerator i find degradable stuff yeah i mean it's just absolutely awful and i mean i'm kind of like taking it to leadership now like because the volunteer community can only do so much eventually the police have to step in city council has to step in parks has to has to step in to like curtail that stuff because we're just up to our elbows and trying to maintain this and we can't we we just can't keep up that's inside yeah yeah colorado springs for the most part we got awesome trails there totally there's a couple of places that yeah you got to be careful of yeah so from a from an equipment standpoint i mean you know one of my standards and and maybe i need to update this and pick your guys brain about this too but you know with night running and headlamps and i say find a great 300 lumen headlamp that you love and buy two of them yeah you know and i i don't know if that's enough right maybe you guys can chime in but uh so this athlete you know he's already got

that from from previous races um he's set there you know from a pack standpoint i mean people people like updating their packs a lot you know but i think it's fun yeah it's so i love it too uh he's in a good pretty good spot really you don't like updating your pack no because i got all my spots for all my things then it's kind of like a shoe when they change a shoe model you're like dang it like the four foot volume is just three millimeters less and then my toes bump into it so you know i imagine he'll be swapping out packs here a couple times but uh i think that's fun and fine um and then from a shoe standpoint to my knowledge he's been locked in on hoka for you know since i started working with them and so i don't you know so i think we're we're set on on equipment side of things um the biggie is in this not just this athlete but but a lot particularly males i work with uh becomes the race day nutrition plan particularly with males i see this particular males really oh i want to hear well well right i mean i i think i don't know let's stay on this athlete first and we'll talk about the particular males piece second well this athlete any long run that he's done uh under you know working with me um we've either had gi just general distress at some point or we've had you know full vomiting dry heave session you know it's six eight hours plus six to eight hours that's not good it's not good and and it's correctable then we walk back from that not every long run quite a few long runs still though it's not very good and then in in a in one of the

50 miles we worked with that i worked with him last year and then in in the 100 mile uh same thing so stomach distress right and i see that you know to broaden that out i see that a lot uh in males tend to have more distress i don't know why i don't i don't i don't have my spreadsheet and i'm giving you 62 percent say this but you know it just seems to be anecdotally uh i hear this a lot from from guys more from males why would that be plausible i think i said i think it has a lot to do with day-to-day nutrition and a lot to do with day-to-day uh extreme nutrition i.e i just finished my my two and a half hour run and those nachos are calling my name and you know three three batches of nachos later and and men do stupider than women yeah that's totally valid totally valid plausible and it's not everyone a couple of a couple of guys i work with like wait that's not me and that's true it's not you but no i mean i would chalk that i mean i i would i would say that's a valid stereotype that men generally have like worse nutrition habits than women and that can lead just to bat just bad gi health overall right exactly and and and for those of you this i mean this was this was a this was me uh to a large extent so i'm not trying to throw people on the bus i mean it's like i'm done running i'm gonna overeat a lot of salty foods then i feel like crap for two days and then i might not eat enough the day of the next long run and i just repeat the cycle so if that's the

problem right having crappy food afterwards what's the solution don't have crappy food afterwards okay there's i think there's a better solution though the better solution well there's that but i honestly think that the in run nutrition yeah if you have that yes more dialed in it prevents the post run gorge fest yeah you're not you shouldn't be like dying to eat something or feeling like you need two giant plates of nachos right if you fed yourself well that's one of the issues i've always had with like depleted runs or bonk runs and things like that like one one of the many not that they don't serve a purpose in in in some cases but doing them repeatedly when you create this huge negative energy balance you then have to replace that at some point and a lot of times that gets replaced in some crappy meal right afterwards to which a you're now deteriorating your overall gut health correct which unwinds any sort of theoretical adaptation that you're getting from the depleted run but but b is just not a healthy way to consume to burn and then consume calories with these huge fluctuations so when i when i see that when i see that in athletes whether they're my athletes or other athletes where they you know they go out on a big run and then afterwards there's you know five hamburgers and king chef is the famous place in caro springs to go to which you guys know about like nor like the my first area of fixing is not focusing on the post run meal it's focusing

on the during run nutrition and just making sure that the deficit isn't as big and so i'm not sure if if calories is the driver um you know a lot of people i work with eat during it but what i've what i've you know anecdotally come up with is sodium's the driver so people seem to at least have a general awareness of oh i'm eating you know calories and when we talk about it's like i'm eating about 180 220 you know 200 calories an hour you know which may or may not be enough but it's they're aware of it it's not nothing yeah they're aware of it i think that's a really good point and and they're also aware of oh well i'm i'm bringing two liters of water with me and by the end of the run it's gone so at least i'm aware of i people forget the the sodium aspect and and right and so that drives a lot of the post run behavior of salt salt salt salt salt causes you know some other issues potentially and then just repeats itself so you know so for this athlete an individual bring it back to this athlete you know that's something we've talked about is that really trying to be aware of the sodium requirement now we've he's never done a sweat test i've never suggested a sweat test but using that range that that we talk about in cts all the time that 600 800 milligrams of sodium you know so far per liter of fluid thank you that's the key not per hour the key piece of it per liter of fluid yeah per liter of fluid um it's interesting that you mentioned that though duncan because the research actually teases this out a little bit so when they do observational studies on ultra marathon runners they notice that they take in more salty and savory foods the later in the race yes so there's

something physiologically that's happening throughout the first part of the race and maybe it's overall fatigue maybe it's an accumulated sodium deficit maybe it's some sort of you know weird biological thing with our palate who kind of knows but very clearly there is this observation that the saltier the chips and the soups and the salted potatoes and things like that get consumed later in the race as opposed to the beginning and interestingly enough when you talk to the aid station captains they tell the exact same story same thing like the aid stations in the early part of the race they're like oh yeah we had you know electrolyte drink and gels and candy right and the ones at the end they're like we have soup and quesadillas and you know fried potatoes and pretzels and you kind of name it it's almost like a completely different menu right later on in the race so to your point of yeah there's something that the long run either nutritionally or biologically or a combination of both right that's causing this salty craving afterwards that then leads to the plate of nachos that we're trying to or four after four or four plates of nachos yeah and so i don't know you know in working with this athlete i mean we didn't have much long runs uh in the fall post run rabbit but that was a we we really tried to say okay if it's a three hour long run that's you know we're gonna get out the graphing calculator and we're gonna we're gonna come up with what are you gonna carry with you and then make sure you're consuming it and then how are we gonna you know and so we're we're entering into that phase again as the long run goes from two to three hours here in the next month and and and up from there so

you're using the long runs as basically the barometer to start to include the race day nutrition stuff yep we're super smart because i we see this a lot where athletes want to practice their race day nutrition program on like a 90 minute run right it just doesn't work right there's not enough stress to give you like a true false positive or anything like that on a 90 minute run like you need three hours four hours five hours to really to really kind of illuminate what's going to work and what's not going to work on those longer runs yeah yeah that's true and you know i've noticed too with that some of the faster athletes you know for something like leadville you know a lot of them can even go out and run four five six hours with barely anything and and right and so then so then should they yeah exactly exactly and so they're exactly right chantelle yeah so they'll run six hours and then they'll i ran six hours i felt i'm like yeah but it compounds from six to eight hours from eight to 12 hours and 12 to 18 hours you can't make that up well but also like the point of going on any run much less a six or eight hour run is to get some type of physiological adaptation correct any time you're starving yourself from calories starving is not the right word any any time you have a big negative energy deficit from a run or just from day-to-day life you automatically blunt to a certain extent and sometimes to a big extent the adaptations that you're then trying to make right so you you have you've created this as an athlete or as a coach when you do those things you go

on these big runs with these big uh uh with these big energy deficits that you're either not replacing afterwards or not actually consuming calories during the run you're automatically not getting as much bang for your buck i mean you're literally training hard and not getting as much adaptation positive adaptation from that type of activity and if you ever presented that proposition to an athlete hey we're going to go and do a four-hour run but it's really only going to be worth a two-hour run because you're not taking that's literally what's happening i'm going to start saying that's literally what's happening like you would never you would you would look at that and go that's insane like why would i put that extra two hours of stress on myself right but yet you see that a lot yeah either only two hours of stress if it how it affects the performance the recovery your sleep that night and then the next few days carry over so it might actually be losing more than two hours you might be right right that'd be a good conversation to have it's like what are the trade-offs of doing this versus doing that because yeah i mean you could just kind of go on and on and on and i've always i mean as a coach you guys have gotten this by now i always take the maximum you know maximum bang for the least amount of buck principle and within nutrition and in run fueling that's one of those things where you can definitely see more bang for the buck if you're properly fueled now that's not to say you have to go out and do every run at 300 calories an hour or anything like that but your what what i think what

it more so points to is you're trying to avoid like the big energy deficits from particularly from the longer runs right right okay so duncan you you've got almost the opposite thing going on with your athlete as compared to chantelle chantelle has very little intensity with her athlete that's doing 100 miler in april which is eight weeks from now right and you've got 100 your athlete is doing 100 miler in august which is six months from now about six months from now you're doing super high intensity stuff so you guys are on the opposite ends of the spectrum from both the volume and intensity right perspective yeah i think some of that's just proximity to the race you know on the on the calendar uh you know seven months versus what two months right uh you know as you get closer to the race it gets more specific so you know longer and slower will happen uh as we get into summer prior to leadville so sweet i like it man yeah i think that's super smart so they're gonna crush leadville i think so uh you know obviously wants the big buckle uh it is a is his uh his top secret goal is sub 24 or something about that going under 24 hours you know as opposed to 25 so it's pretty good yeah all right yeah sweet well i got i'm glad i got in the lottery yeah it's kind of a debacle well i think the run was unaffected was that true i think it was the mountain bike right where the yeah the problem happened i think yeah man that was that's crazy maybe i'll swing by and talk to ken after this and he can give me the low down on it what happened yeah anyway uh they'll correct they let everybody in though i think that's

the right thing i don't know i don't know how that affects the field size which would be kind of interesting so for the for the listeners that aren't in on the mountain bike side the lottery works like works very similar to any other lottery uh running lottery where everybody you know puts into the hat and then they draw electronic names out of the hat and what they did is is they informed people who were not in the race that they were and then they charged people who they didn't draw into the race and now that my now that my memory serves me correctly i think that some of that happened on the run as well but anyway it the whole both the bike and the run it was it was not done very well and i think that the resolution to all of this and i'll i'll correct the record in the outro for this by the way um i think the outcome to all of this is they ended up letting everybody who thought that they were in the race get it or they can or they are also allowing them to defer to 21 okay very good they have the option breaking news we might have it wrong it's like the election it's like the gore bush election right where they kept flip-flopping the answer or the outcome yeah crazy all right that's enough nonsense for now i appreciate you guys being on thanks thanks a lot thanks for having us any any last parting bits of wisdom that you guys want to throw out to the listeners out there oh well i was just gonna say a thing that popped in my brain about wintertime running is uh fat biking is now a popular pursuit and there's entities that are grooming for fat biking so we have we have five bike trails the national championships is like in the next week or two right in crest of butte yeah and so you know our our local trails organization here in gunnison is

grooming i don't know how many miles uh probably probably 30 to 50k for fat biking out of hartman rocks recreation area and a lot of our trail runners here are are hopping out on that so if you're in an area that has some fat biking maybe look to that oh man there's a there's a cool uh bike manufacturer in color springs called borealis bikes that they there i think they might be the title sponsor this yeah maybe the fat bike national championships but uh yeah i've always wanted to get on one because colorado springs is actually a really great it's got really great terrain yeah for that type of cycling because of the loose gravel and everything it's very similar to snow and yeah yeah but yeah point so anyway partying words get proper advice if you have if you're dealing with something i've just seen this is not a new thing but you know there's so many you know message boards facebook groups whatever and someone has an issue a problem and they put something out and you know thousands of people some of these groups are huge right thousands of people have a different thing oh i had plantar fasciitis and this worked for me you are an individual get help from a professional if you're dealing with if you're dealing with um a problem like duncan's guy and you can't solve the problem why you know nutritionally why he's not able to eat and why he's always throwing up and you're you've exhausted your trial and error see someone about it see a registered dietitian get some testing get some help if you've got a problem you know with your with your body don't rely on an internet group or your buddy in your run club to tell you

which foot exercises to do see a professional yeah it's in our day and age everybody's a professional it's actually hard to tell like who the quacks are and who are not um especially on social media yeah but just just get real you know just try try not to you know go to all the internet experts like try to find a real expert in that particular field and get the support you need because it's you know we we put our bodies through a lot doing these kinds of events and most of the people doing these events are you know in their 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s and 80s even so we've got you know cumulative mileage on our bodies and you know you wouldn't you wouldn't drive your car around and never get your oil changed right so get some help i love it if you need it i love it all right you guys we're gonna wrap it up thank you guys for your time thanks thanks thanks for being yeah thanks for being the guinea pigs to stress test the van this is the first recording in the van so that's pretty awesome we'll see we'll see we'll see how the audio turns out afterwards but i appreciate it you guys all right thanks a lot and there you have it trail runners hopefully you guys came away with some extremely practical tidbits of information that you can take out on the trails with you maybe today maybe tomorrow or maybe over the weekend thanks a lot to uh duncan and chantelle for recording this podcast there are good sports

about it uh considering this is the first time in the van we had a lot of fun with it as you guys as you guys can tell and if you guys think a coach like duncan or coach like chantelle or any one of our other 11 cts ultra running coaches that's right we've got 11 coaches in our coaching department and all of them are absolutely fantastic if you think any of those coaches are right for you you think they can help you out with your goals this summer go ahead hit me up on instagram hit me up on twitter and i will get you synced up with one of those coaches or you can visit our website which is www.trainright.com and check out all of our coaching packages we're running a special right now if you enter the promo code KoopCast in all caps when you sign up i'll waive your registration fee that's my gift to you guys the listeners always appreciate the heck out of you guys if you have a minute go take some time and subscribe to this podcast on itunes or give it a rating or a review i always appreciate the feedback you guys had a lot of fun with this one uh next up i will see you guys at black canyon taking the van out to black canyon have a few athletes racing out there hopefully some of them will get some golden tickets but it's always a good time uh whenever i can get out to that part of arizona and see people race as always you guys we will see you on the trails