What It's Like to Be Coached by Koop with AJW & Kaci Lickteig | Koopcast Episode 149

Hello, my name is Andy Jones Wilkins and welcome to this edition of the KoopCast. As frequent listeners know, Coop is on a little bit of a break and he's handed over the controls to Stephanie Howe and me and I'm thrilled about it. And Stephanie's done some amazing podcasts already and I'm launching part one of a four-part series on what it's like to be coached by Coop. As anybody who's listened to the podcast for any period of time knows that Jason Koop is one of the top, if not the top, ultra running coaches in the world. And while he spends a lot of time on this podcast talking about the science of the sport and the data of the sport and the experience of the sport, I thought it would be fun since he's given me the controls to talk to four athletes who've been coached by Coop or are being coached by Coop and to talk to them about what that experience is like, how they've kind of navigated that and what it all means. And so my first guest is somebody who really needs no introduction. I first met her at the 2014 Western States 100. We were about 20 miles into the

race. And I, she came up upon me. I knew who she was through the internet and so forth. But when she came up upon me, we chatted for a little while. I told her how excited I was that she was at the race. You know, that 2014 race ended up being my 10th and final finish at Western States and our guests first finish. Fast forward about nine hours later, and I came upon her again. She was on her way down Volcano Canyon. Anybody who's familiar with the Western States Trail knows Volcano Canyon comes at about mile 60, 58, 60. And, and she had a little hitch in her step. She was moving okay. She was sweating a lot. We chatted again and, and I went on my merry way and, and she ended up finishing, you know, a little while after me.

Just a couple of months ago, she finished her eighth Western States. So between the two of us, from my first run in 2001 and her most recent finish in 2022, we have 18 Western States finishes between the two of us. Coop has a lot to do with many of those finishes, but I'm thrilled this evening to be talking to none other than the Pixie Ninja, Casey Ligtai. Casey, how are you? I'm great. How are you? I'm doing well. Do you remember that time in the high country in 2014? Like the back of my hand. Yes. I remember hearing your voice coming up behind me. I'm like, there's AJW. I heard all about him, but I've never met him until then. It was great. And, and, and we had a little time to talk. Do you remember the, the time at Volcano also?

I was like suffering going down my quadra blown and you were flying. You're like, it happens to the best of us. You look so smooth. Well, and, and, you know, I was, I was kind of finishing up my 10 year run and we're going to talk a little bit about the 10 year buckle, uh, in a, in a, in a little while, but, but that was, you know, 2014. And, um, and I think anybody who is familiar with, with Coop knows, uh, his training essentials for ultra running book. And in the, in the second edition, uh, which just came out, it's a beautiful book, by the way, you should buy it. If you haven't bought it, uh, listeners hardcover, it like in classic Coop style, it reads much more like a textbook than a novel, but you wrote the foreword to that book. And the first line is, I want to win Western States.

That was my goal. Tell me about that. You, you, I mean, our mutual friend, Scott Jaime, a great Colorado runner, 10 time, um, a hard rock finisher, wonderful ambassador to the sport. You were chatting with him and you told him you, what your dreams and goals were. And he said, well, you got to get in touch with this guy, Jason Koop. And, and so you did. So how'd it go from there? Yeah, we, I just remember getting on the phone with him and we chatted and he asked me, you know, what are your goals for ultra running? And I basically was straight up told him like, I'm coming from a road marathon background. So, you know, I've looked into ultras, started doing them and I've fallen in love. I I'm just, I don't know how to train for them. And I had these three specific goals. And I remember the very first one was, I've heard all about Western States. I want to qualify for it. And, you know, I would like, I want to win that race someday. And he's like, well, sounds like we can make this happen and it'll take time and work, but we can do it as a team. And I was like, you're sold. I mean, I'll, I'm like, let's, let's do this. I, I had one big race coming up and that was going to be this, you know, my race, um, Rocky Raccoon that 2014 to qualify or to get a Western States ticket.

And that was my big goal. And that was right when Coop just started to coach me right after that race. And so he legitimately started my Western States saga. So, so yeah, so that's, so you've, Coop's been coaching you pretty much continuously for eight years. Yes. And, and I think, I think that's important for people to realize that, that the coaching relationship is something that, you know, in, in, in the best of all worlds is a multi-year process, whether you're an elite runner like Casey or a mid or back of the packer, like most of us, you know, if you want to achieve your goals and exceed your goals in the sport, committing to a coach for the longterm is really valuable. So, so, so you told Coop that you wanted to win Western States, which is a pretty audacious goal. Um, you know, you had a, a nice sixth place finish in 2014, um, that year that, that we first met one another. Um, you came back in 2015 and got second place. Um, I suspect at that point, I mean, having myself been a second place finisher 10 years prior, there's something about being a second place finisher that just ignites the fire. Um, did that happen? You know, in that 2015 year, I mean, was, was Coop's, were you convinced at that point that

Coop's coaching was working? Yes, absolutely. We, we had a lot of kinks that we had to work out that first year because he had different techniques and style that I wasn't used to. And so I had to adapt, he had to adapt to me and we ended up working really well. And that next year obviously showed for it. And what was interesting is like, he listened to me and I listened to him. So we were a co-partner team. Right. And I mean, you know, you're, you at the time, and I mean, at least until recent years, you were like a 5,000 mile a year runner. Uh, and you know, a lot of, you know, flat running, rolling running. I mean, you, but you like, you're a runner's runner, right? And, and, and Western States was a little different dynamic. And, um, you know, that we know where you live, it's, you know, you, you hit the Hills like late in the game typically, but after that second place in 2015, did you guys have like, and I have not talked to Coop about this. I haven't talked to you about this, but did you have a sit down and say, okay, I got second place in this thing.

I'm in my late twenties. I got to grab the ring right now. What we did, we basically like looked back and we looked at what worked, what didn't work from the first year, from the second year. And then we collaborated about like, you know what, if we put this piece into this puzzle and this puzzle into this piece, and basically got it all worked out, we basically found where, where my weakest links were. And we, we worked on those during that next year before 2016 start. And, and what were those weakest links? I had to work on like technical skills and I had to also work on my, I had to work on downhills. I mean, that's what blew me up the first year totally. And then trying not to blow up during, I always blew up right coming into Michigan bluff. And I knew I had to fix that because that took a lot of time where I could be running. And so once we kind of keyed into those components, we found that like, if I can work on those areas, I would be pretty solid. Cause I knew once I hit forest Hill, if I can have legs going down the river, I was ready to. Yeah. I mean, any, any, anybody looking at the race would know like a pure runner, like yourself, when you got to forest Hill, or, and especially when you got to green gate, you were, you know, you were going to be in the hunt.

I mean, I know for those of us who were sort of looking on, you know, 15 was my first year of being a spectator at the race and a volunteer. And then 16, the year you won, I was like a spectator slash pacer, you know, crew, but it was clear that you had improved the two things you mentioned, the downhills and the, and the long gradual climbs. Did you do that through training? Did you do that through like even more volume than you normally do? Or was coop sort of did, what was it like the coop magic special sauce to just kind of make it better? Cause you know, you were, you were an outstanding endurance athlete in 2012, 2013, you just became a specific to Western States athlete in 2015 and 2016. Right. What really benefited me was going to the Memorial day weekend camp and getting on the trail, getting more experience on the trail. And coop got me into that, like, do volume versus mileage, like get out of that mindset of, you know, miles for miles versus more volume and vert. And so we got into more doing long vert training runs versus long distance training runs. And that really helped my legs build up that, you know, endurance I needed for the long climbs, which I don't have here and just getting used to those settling in for the duration of however long that hill is or the mountain is. Right. And I, and I think it proved to coop his, his, his,

he had this theory in the back of his head that you don't need that much time in specificity to adapt to specificity and like your experience and a couple of his other athletes. And I know it's, it's extended now to recently to my athletes, like going to that three day weekend on Memorial day. I mean, on the one hand, it seems so little, it's just three days in the grand scheme of, you know, 180 day training cycle, but it's huge. Yeah. And, and, and, and not only, you know, you obviously you get the training benefit, but as, as you and I know, as, as people who love the Western States course, you also get the, I mean, this is what I've talked to coop about. You get the vibe of the Western States course. You get that there's an aura around that place that when you show up there on Memorial day, you don't have the pressure of the race, but you can still sort of absorb that aura. So even if you're only running 70 miles and going from Robinson flat to forest hill and then doing Cal street and then do, you're doing it in the context of, you know, in five weeks, I'm going to do this in the race. And I think there's an art and a science to those kinds of training camps that really, I mean, I saw them work for you. And then you might, you know, you might do a decent, like a double long run on, you know, on the first weekend, the weekend after that, but pretty much your work is done at that point. Right. Yeah. If you can come out of that feeling

good, you're really set up yourself for a great Western States. And what I've seen out of you, Casey is I sometimes think, I mean, you, you obviously run with joy at Western States, like I did for all my years, but you almost run with more joy on Memorial day weekend. Cause you've been every year for, I don't know, the last 10 years. Right. Right. Cause I didn't go the first year, which I kicked myself in the butt for not going because now I've just grown with the family and the community. It's just so fun. I love everybody there. So 2016, the year you won, I mean, we'll, we'll spoil it. Casey won, but you had a battle. I mean, it was an early battle, right? Devin went out pretty quick. There were a couple, uh, Lucy Bartholomew went out pretty quick, I think, if I remember correctly. And you were doing your thing. You wanted to run sub 18, you, in a perfect world, you would have been in the low 17s, but like the, the race took on a life of its own.

And you were in, you were in first place probably earlier than you thought. How did, how did that feel? I just still couldn't believe that I was in the lead. I, I never, I just knew someone was going to come back up and catch up with me. And so I never believed I was going to win until I crossed no hands bridge. And so that whole time I just had that pressure behind me, just that little bit of a push to keep me on fire and to keep me on my toes so that I didn't mess up and didn't make mistakes. And I just made myself remember, don't make, don't make stupid mistakes basically, and just keep running. And was, was Coop out there? Oh yes. Yep. He's out there every year for me.

Right. But was, was he there at like, um, Greengate or like late? He was, um, I remember at Forest Hill seeing him and then I can't, I can't remember. I saw him again. And he basically said like, you have a 45 minute gap on the next one. If you just, just do what you're doing, don't get in your head, just keep running, just run. And that's what I love is that it gives me that sense of calmness. Like I get in my head and I'm like, panic, gotta run faster. And it's like, no, you don't, don't do that. Just listen to Coop and just do what you're doing. You're doing everything that you can do to make the successful. You can screw it up by going faster, or you can just do what you're doing and continue happy.

You know, one of the things it's interesting, you mentioned that because one of the things that I've admired about your, the relationship that you and Coop have, and this is what you said a few minutes ago when you were, when you were working out the tweaks in the early months of your relationship is that, and Coop, Coop preaches this and I do too, as a coach, he, there's, there's not, Coop does not want you to be dependent on him and you don't want to be dependent on him, but at those right moments, at the, at the right time when he can say the right words, whether it's in the, in the race or in training, you're, you're there for one another.

And, and I think, I think in this, in, in, in the world we live in right now, there's a lot of people who just want to be told what to do, you know, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And one of the things I've always admired about the relationship you guys have and the way in which, you know, like you managed the 2016 race is it was like, yes, you had his voice in the back of your head, but you also knew what you could do. Like you knew you got second the year before and you knew like if it played out right and you had done your training right and you'd hit everything right, you were going to win. And then it was just a matter of making it happen. I think that's, I mean, do you, do you feel like you have to work on the relationship or is it just kind of the way it is now that it's, you know, eight years old? I feel like we've grown as a team the whole time. Like we, we can collaborate. We don't even have to like basically talk every day or every other day. It's like, you know, he'll message me on my runs and I get what he means.

And I'm like, okay, you know what he's going to say if you do something stupid, so don't do something stupid. And, you know, it's just like, I've learned a lot from his experience and how, you know, I've grown as an athlete also. And so, yeah, we, our relationship is amazing how we just kind of know each other really well now. Yeah. So then let's go to the 2017 race. You know, you're the defending champion. Um, you had a decent buildup, but you know, as sometimes happens at Western States, it just, it, it turned out to not be your day. And I was there. Coop was there. Um, a bunch of other people with cameras and stuff were there and you rolled into the river.

Did not roll. It was more like, let's just kind of make our way there. So, so to the listeners out there, Casey arrived at the river and I mean, the, the cheerful, uh, Casey that we all know was like way out the back and, and you were, I mean, you were making like signal across your neck. You were like, I'm done. I'm your, your skin even had a little kind of green color to it. I mean, you, you were done and you sat your ass down in a chair and tell us what happened. That was the very first time I've ever sat at a race in a chair. So I knew things were South very, very soon. I was having the biggest pity party I can ever imagine having. So yeah, going into that race, I had a lot of stress on my shoulders, not only from being past champion, trying to become another champion two years in a row, but then I had like family stress going on and it was, you know, how they say, you know, pressure can make diamonds. Well, this diamond burst and did not become a diamond. I literally crumbled into bits and pieces like bird coal. Cause I was, I was done. I sat there. I contemplated life of like, why, why, why, why am I doing this? I don't know how many times I looked down at my yellow wristband and I'm like,

I don't want to cut it. And then the other person on my shoulder was like, yes, you do. You just walked eight miles to the river. And that was a slog and you don't want to walk 20 some more miles. So I was having this like Jekyll and Hyde conversation in my head, but the community around me, you, Coop, Miguel, and just everybody that was sitting there, like I knew I did not in my heart want to quit. So however, whatever hours it was, it was like an hour when Stephanie, she comes down and Stephanie case comes down there, strolling along as happy as a lark sits, flops down right beside me, opens up this McDonald's eats McDonald's. And she's just like, yeah, what are you doing here?

And she was like, just Lord that I was there. And I'm like, yeah, I am too, but this isn't what it is. And I'm quitting. And she just didn't, she was just like not having it. She's like, you're not quitting. You have two legs. You're going to walk. And she drug my ass out of that chair. She walked, marched me down to the river. I got in the boat. And that's one of our famous sayings is get in the boat, got in the boat. I still was reluctant. I'm going to hike up to Greengate and I'm going to quit is what I said. I remember that. And well, once I got up Greengate, I'm like, I got a new life in me. I have a second life. Stephanie gave me it. And everybody down at the river is cheering me on. And you know what? We're going to see what happens and I'm going to keep going. And lo and behold, that year I was the first bronze buckle finisher at 2402. And you know what? I'm damn proud of that buckle. I can't believe I did it. I remember that because I got to announce your finish.

Yes. It was a really nice moment. As listeners might not know, I sit in in the booth from about the 24-hour mark to the 27-hour mark or so, so that John Mettinger can get a nap. And we were up in the booth. I usually get there at like the 2330 mark. And of course, there's people plowing in. And we were getting data on your finish. And Mettinger was like, oh, it looks like Casey's going to be pretty close. And then we realized that you were going to be a little bit over 24. And he was like, screw it, Andy. You announce Casey's finish. I'm going to go down there and give her her medal in person. And he did. And you might remember he was down there. He was there to meet you. And I got to announce your finish and talk about the experience you had at the river and getting back up off that chair and getting it done. I will say one of the things that was most noteworthy for me as an observer was how calm Coop was in that moment. And Miguel, too. For those listeners, Miguel is Casey's longtime training partner and pacer and knew when they arrived at the river crossing that Casey was in trouble and probably wanting to quit. So it was a real team effort. But what I found so remarkable within the calmness that both of those guys had was you see so many people when they're confronting a

runner who's thinking of dropping, of being frantic about it. And Coop was very calm about it. I mean, he wasn't going to let you drop. I mean, he wasn't going to let you grab a pair of scissors and cut your scissors. But but but he was also respectful, as as was Miguel, who's run got 1000s of miles with you, was respectful of the place you were in at that moment. And then when fast forward five hours later, and you're coming around the track sprinting, I mean, heck, if it has been 120 mile race, you probably would have been top 10. But that's a that's an incredibly proud bronze buckle finish because of of what you did and and how you did it. And, and I think it was a good example of you know, you had to do it yourself. But the people you surround yourself with, most notably Miguel and Coop in this case, you know, and Stephanie, who was like the circumstantial gatekeeper, the gatekeeper, and Chris Thornley, who was down there at the boat, and he was like, get in the boat, we're getting out of here. You know, Chris, you can't say no to Chris. So okay, so then we've got a fast forward. So you've had eight Western States finishes up until today, you had your eighth this year. But I think it's important that we talk about what you've been through in the last 12 months, because I'm, I'm guessing that in we're recording this on October 1, 2022. I'm guessing on October 1,

2021, you were not thinking that you'd be finishing your eighth Western States this past June, were you? I never let myself say I was never going to finish it. So I've never believed I wouldn't be there because I was going to do my best to get there one way or another. But I knew it was going to be a long, hard road to get there. And I was willing to put in the work. So share with us what actually went down as you went in, you went into kind of an injury spiral that ultimately resulted in pretty significant surgery. Not, not that far out from Western States.

Yes. So last year, I struggled all last year and I didn't know what was going on. And I, I continued to race. I raced in my final race was going to be Rio de Lago. So I finished that race barely because I had done something significant to my hamstring during the race, which had been plaguing me all year. So it just kind of sealed the deal there. I finished that race. I already had a doctor's appointment scheduled to look at my hamstrings. I figured something's going on, got the diagnosis, the end of, um, end of November, basically. And they said, you have had basically a partially 50% torn hamstring. That's been retracted to about two, one and a half, two centimeter or inches from your butt bone, where it inserts at the, but where your butt is. So I've been basically dragging a leg along the whole year. And I had no idea why, because your body compensates so well. And he said, the only way that you're going to be able to run again, run healthfully is to have surgery. And it's going to be, um, a surgery with one of the longest recoveries that we, we do. And that kind of like, Oh crap. And so he said, well, our soonest we can do this surgery would be in January. And I asked him straight up, I go, can I run a hundred miles in June at the end of June? And he counted it. And he said, well, knowing you

and knowing your background, I believe you can do it, but it has got to take a lot of patience and you've got to take yourself out of race mode. You can complete something like that, but I don't believe ever you should race it. Well, lo and behold, I got lucky and my surgery got moved up to December 22nd. So that gave me more time. I scared, so scared. I've never had surgery before and never had something where basically for the first, um, it was 12 weeks. I couldn't do anything. Basically. I was going to be on crutches for three weeks, non-weight bearing, partial toe touch weight bearing. And then from there on, it was going to be the slowest, um, progress to get back to walking even. So I made a goal with coop and I said, coop, my doctor said, if, if I recover smartly, I am allowed to run Western States. And so we collaborated all three of us together to figure out the best way for me to rehab from it. I kid you not. I started running. I think it was like very end of March and this is like running as like three, four miles jog, jog.

It hurts like crap to run. Um, I did something stupid and coop told me not to do it, but I signed up for, um, to pace a friend on a marathon on May 1st. He said, don't do it. It's going to be too soon. And I was reluctant to give back the, you know, I want to give back to other. So I said, I already committed to this. So I ended up running a marathon with my friend and I was out for like two weeks because it blew my hamstring and everything up. And then I thought I've done, I'm done. I can't run Western States cause I, I can't run two weeks now and who knows if it's going to happen again. So then I had already signed up for the Memorial day camp and I decided it's either now or never.

I'm either going to do this camp and it's going to go well, or I'm going to do it and it's not going to go well. And then I know there's no way I can run a hundred miles. I went through camp. I'm not going to lie. I, I struggled during camp with just, I've not been on trails. That was my first trail experience since the surgery and since Rio de Lago basically, and my longest runs. So my longest run was 26 miles, which was the marathon and longest time on the feet was five hours before I went into Western States this year. So that was my training. I literally had, that was it. It was all going to be heart and soul and just believing in myself to finish this race. So when I got to Western States, I just made it in my mind that you're going to take it one mile at a time. Cooper talked to me. He's like, I know you can finish this and I know you're going to finish this.

And he always gives me that sense of calmness, no matter what. I just feel like when I talk to him, he settles my nerves. He gives me like that headspace I need to do what I need to do. And I always, no matter who, you know, he's my coach, he's my friend, but I always want to honor him. And I want to honor him as an athlete and a friend. And I want to do my best for him because it makes you feel good when you do good for like your coach and for others. So I wanted to make sure I didn't screw it up. And here we go. I finished faster than I did in 2017, finished in 23 hours this year. And so I didn't get top 10. So now I'm at that point of, I've got to work again to get back into Western States for next year. And like I did last year and the years before, I'm going to work my ass off again. Well, what a, what a great story. I, I, I will say, I mean, Coop, he, he went to your, he came to your house, he came out to your house. Well, he was there right as I got out of surgery, as you got out of, I mean, this is for, for listeners out there, this is, this is not your normal. Like when you sign up for a coach, they come to your house when you get out of surgery, but this is the kind of relationship you guys have forged over now the years. And, and I think part of the reason though, Casey is because you are, you know, you're a unique person. You're not

just sitting there. I mean, yes, you, you probably should have listened to him and not pace the, the friend for the 26, you know, for the marathon, but you had your reasons for doing that. And he also knew Coop also knew, I feel this way with my athletes. He knew I can only push so hard with Casey. Right. But what I saw, I mean, we, we saw each other for the first time this year at Western States at Michigan Bluff, which we've now seen each other at Michigan Bluff every year you've run it since I have stopped running it. And you just said, I feel great. It's just slower than all the other years. Um, which I was like, well, it's okay. You know, you knew you were going to be slower this year than all the other years and, and you're going to get it done. I think though, what I saw happen to you this year is, and I, and I, and I don't want you to take this the wrong way.

And I'm going to get a little emotional here, but I saw you become a veteran this year, like the year in 2017, when you got off the, got out of the chair and, you know, and, and I think being a veteran at Western States is, is something that it's, you don't just, no one decides you're a veteran at Western States. You earn it. And what you did in this year's race is you earned the credibility to be like a veteran Western. I'm not saying when you had five finishes, you weren't a veteran or when you won. I mean, hell, I never won. So, I mean, you have a Cougar, I don't, but what you have, what you earned this year in this eighth finish was that kind of that, that special status that also acknowledges that this race, we can say what we want about all the other races, UTMB, Hard Rock, all the other races, but this race has a, is, is, stands alone in the pantheon of races that are just special to certain people and make certain people more special. And what I think happened to you this year and, and got you out of the chair in 2017 is that phenomenon. And I think you have Cougar to thank, but I also think you have yourself to thank and your willingness. And, and we're going to talk

in a second about, you know, what it's going to take to get back there, but, you know, your willingness to say, I want to get back to that. I mean, nobody in their right mind who's doing three and four mile runs in March is thinking they're going to finish Western States at the end of June. No, nobody, but you, but you were, I mean, and so the magic, the magic of the race and it got into you and, and there's no denying that. And so Casey, you're sitting on eight finishes. I think anybody listened to this, listening to this podcast knows that the opportunity to get 10 finishes at Western States is, is fleeting at best. There are fewer and fewer opportunities to do that.

I know it's something that's probably, I don't want to, is what, would you say 10 Western States finishes is that you're like top of your list of goals? It's the number one plus, plus, plus. Right, right. Right. So, so for anybody listening, you need to know that once Casey gets her ninth finish, she gets a free, she gets a buy for her 10th finish. That's one of the nice things Western States does. I remember benefiting from that in 2013 when I was like, oh my gosh, thank God. Now I get a free pass, but you've got to get, you've got to get that ninth finish. And we know people who've taken multiple years to get to the point to get that ninth finish. Now I know you're coming down here to the desert where I live. I can't wait to see you, by the way. It's going to be awesome to see you.

Yay. Party done. Party done. But how are you feeling going into Javelina in four weeks? Well, I may have been absent of Strava for a while because I blew myself up again. So I keep doing that. So a couple of weeks ago, I, I kind of strained my hamstring the week one again. So what did I do? I was actually smart. I stopped running and I did cross training. And this last week I just started running, basically trying to get my feet back under me. And today I can say I completed an ultra for, for those of you are wondering, I did get it done and I'm happy with it. My hamstrings happy. So we're back on fire again.

And, and so, and, and, and, and, and I mean, we're, we're recording this on October 1st. So you've got four weeks till Javelina and you've never been like a long taperer anyway. I mean, someone that does the volume like you, you know, you're, you're not going to be a long taperer. So, so, I mean, you'll probably, and you've run Javelina before, had success out here. I love the fact that there's a hundred mile golden ticket races now. I'm sure you do too. You know, it's a lot easier than trying to hammer a hundred K with a bunch of kids. But, but, but I mean, are, are you feeling, I mean, so how is, I mean, in terms of, again, getting back to the, what it's like to be coached by Coop, how's he managing your, your training and expectations going into this? Because I mean, I know Casey, I know you well enough that if you get fourth place at Javelina, you're going to be signing up for Black Canyon or Bandera or something else so that you can keep trying to do it. So like, how's, how's Coop managing that part right now?

Right now we're just focusing basically one day at a time. He's just, you know, coming back, he checks in, how are you feeling? Let's progress to this. And he, like, I know what he would say, like, let's, let's do litmus tests is what he calls them for runs. And then, so once we get back on track, I feel like we're going to be fine again. It was just me being a little overzealous, which I do that and I'm stubborn to, you know, I have to blow myself up before I stop. So that's something I'm notorious about doing. And, um, he knows how to push me back into setbacks and get me back on track again. Well, as someone who's, as someone who's been a friend of Coop for a long time, and I mean, hell, hell, we're on, I'm on his podcast. He's, he's stubborn too. You know, he's just, he's just stubborn in a little different way. Like he's, the problem with Coop is he is usually the smartest person in the room. And, you know, and, and, and there's, it's hard to fight that, you know what I mean? Um, but, but someone such as yourself, I mean, you've got experience on your side. You, you might be like, well, geez, Coop, when did you ever get top 10 at Western States? Do you ever like flip the script on him? Or are you just like, no, I'm not going to do that?

Uh, no, because I know he's always right. And I'm wrong because that's the experience. I'm always like, why didn't you listen to Coop? That's the exact same thing I did this last time. I was like, you pushed yourself and you didn't listen to Coop again. And you're like back in the hole. So it's me being just a little, I pushed myself a little extra. And if I would just stay the course, I'd be fine. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to, I want to finish with, uh, the, the, you know, the, the topic that is near and dear to our heart, which is the Western States 100. I, I will, I, I think anybody who knows me listening to this podcast knows that like the, my, my passion for Western States is, is, you know, on, on, on, unlimited. And as I've watched you over the years, yours is too. And, uh, I mean, I, I feel there's, there's something really kind of sweet and, and nice about the fact that we met each other when I was running my last one and you were running your first one and you've, you've made it, you know, as you said, your A plus plus plus goal to get that 10th finish. Um, and whether it comes in 2024, which we all hope it will, or sometime after, you know, it's, it's going to happen, but what, what, I guess I have to ask you, I mean, I, I have my own answers,

but I don't often get a chance to ask people of the same level of passion that I have to this question, but what is it? You know, you and I have both run a bunch of races, you know, all kinds of races around the world. What is it about this race in California, you know, from this mountain town down to this little dusty, you know, valley town, you know, that, I mean, it's pretty, there's parts of it that are pretty, but there's parts of it that aren't that pretty. It's dusty. It's always hot. You know, it's like, what, what is it Casey for you now having traversed that course eight times, won the race, been second at the race, scraped by with just over 24 hours at the race.

What is it about Western States that keeps you wanting to come back? It's like, it's the chapters of my life that I live there. Like I live, breathe, think about this race daily. And it's not just the race itself. It's the experience of all my memories I have on it, meeting you. And like, I felt like that moment we, you kind of passed a little baton to me and to like, I don't know. I just felt that spark and this special aura in my heart. And it just grew from that moment of like starting that race and all the friendships, like making my very first race. I made a, you know, pack with Nick Clark when we were struggling up six minute Hill, which is like 12 minute Hill. We were both struggling and we made a pack that we were finishing no matter what. And like that race compared to the next ones where I was with Magda for a while and just all the people that are part of the community of volunteers, they feel like I go from family reunion to family reunion down the trail every year and it gets stronger and stronger. And so just like this year when I didn't think I was going to make it now, I'm going to cry. Cause the first time I took steps on the trail for camp, I just started crying because it means so much to me to be there. And it's, I know it's silly because it's a race, but it's not just a race. It's something more deep in,

in, you know, it, it's something you can't really explain, but it's like part of you. Once you've been part of it, it becomes part of you. And I, I have such love for everyone and everything about it. And I don't know, like, like this, you talking with me about it, nobody, nothing else really gets my heart to cry. Like I don't, I'm not emotional. I don't really cry a lot. And this is something I'll cry about because it means everything to me. Well, I, I, I didn't mean to make you cry, but I will say, I will say that this year, I mean, this year I, I had the opportunity to just, because of my life, I was able to stay a couple of days after the race and, and get out and run on the trail and, you know, just go for a little, you know, five mile runs and stuff. And, and I even felt that emotion, you know, I just went down across no hands bridge or, you know, went part of the way down to the El Dorado Canyon. And I mean, it does, it gets, it really does for those of us who understand, and, and this is kind of why I brought it up, Casey is because, you know, there aren't, there aren't a lot of people who understand the aura of Western States. I mean, there are the people who've done it, you know, for years and the people who volunteer every year, but, you know, there's an aura to Western States that, I mean, I think, I think there's, there's,

on the one hand, there's this massive desire on the part of the public to get in and check it off their bucket list and everything else. And I love that. It's great for the race. It's great for the event. But then there's also people like you and me who, I mean, I, I mean, when Craig said, and he was pretty point blank, AJW, you've got your 10th finish. I hope you don't ever expect to plan on running it again, because, you know, you're not going to be able to. And of course he was joking, but I also realized like my time of running the race was over, but my time with the race was far from over, right? My time of being there and, and in the seven years I've been going since I've stopped running it. I mean, it's been every bit as meaningful as the times I was running it, but for, for me to see in you, and, and I, I appreciate the passing of the baton, but, you know, in order to, in order for somebody to pass the baton, the receiver needs to be willing to receive the baton. And I couldn't think of a person more willing to receive that baton than you and the way you carried yourself the year you won the race, the way you carried yourself the year you were ready to drop and got off the mat. And especially the way you carried yourself this year, when you knew right from the get-go, I mean, silver buckle is about all it's going to be.

I mean, you, I'm, I'm sure you got to certain places along the course and it was like a little bit darker than it's been in other years you've run it, right? I mean, that happens as, you know, and, and, and that's okay. And the fact that you paid honor to the race, you respect every little bit about it. I mean, that says a lot about the, the, the grip the event has on you and me, but also the kind of person you are. Um, and so I hope, I hope to see you at that starting line in, uh, in June in 2023. And if you get that finish, you know, you can have a victory lap in 2024. Maybe I'll find someone to pass the baton again, too. We'll just keep going down the trail.

I, I remember, I remember talking to Tim Tweetmeyer about that when he was, I mean, it was, wasn't 10, it was 25 for him, but those, I mean, that was a different era, but, but he was just, I mean, and I, he and I ran his 25th was my, I think fifth or something, but he ran the race with that kind of attitude. Like I'm doing this for the last time. I'm going to thank the aid station volunteers. I'm going to do that. So, I mean, I think Casey, you get it and you understand how powerful Western States is and what a force it is. But if you were to like, if you were to, I like, to talk about the mystique, the history, the competition, the, that it gets in your blood, but like as a parting word, you know, what it, what it's going to, as you're, whether it's at Javelina where you're going for the golden ticket or some later race, what, what will it be?

Aside from being at that starting line, what is it about Western States that's going to make you like go that extra bit? Just like you said, to honor and be there and to uphold the standard of Western States and what it is to the running community and to, to us. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's bigger, it's bigger than any one person or any one idea. Yeah. And, and I'm, I'm so happy Casey that you get that. Uh, I think Coop gets it and this is Coop's podcast. So I got to give him a little shout out for being there for you. Um, and, uh, you know, I, for one, uh, can't wait to see you circle that track for number nine and way more. Can't wait to be at that finish line when you get number 10. Cause I know you will.

And we're going to make some buckles selfies. We're going to have lots of buckle selfies. Um, but, uh, Casey, this has been a wonderful, uh, time to chat with you. I know that, um, that you, you know, you're a person to whom running anybody who looks at you, it looks like running comes so easily to you and it doesn't always does it? No, not at all. I mean, there are times where it's, it's, it's more work than you wish it was. Definitely. Cross training is work. Oh my God. Yeah. Going into the gym and, uh, yeah. Getting on those machines and everything else. Yes. But it's all part of the process to get to your goals.

Yeah. So everybody tuning in this evening, thank you so much for being here. Um, Casey, thank you for being our first, uh, guest on the, what it's like to be coached by Coop, uh, podcast series that, uh, Coop is probably regretting handing over the controls to me, but, uh, fortunately he's also handed over half of the controls to Stephanie. And I know Coop will be back in November and the KoopCast will live on and, and be a great, uh, addition to all of your various podcasts, but, but Casey on behalf of, you know, all of us have been running for a long time and who love to hear you talk and hear about your passion and hear about you just getting it done day after day, you know, in the, in the Midwest in, in, in it, without a lot of glamor with a full-time job, you know, with a lot of other stuff going on, you just keep getting it done. And I think I speak on behalf of all of us that, uh, we admire that and, and hope that hope to see you and, uh, circling that track and Placer high and, uh, fourth Saturday in June, or it might even be into Sunday, but that'll be okay. Uh, uh, in June. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to this edition of the KoopCast with guest host AJW. Can you think of a more infectiously positive person than Casey Liktai? What a wonderful opportunity it was to spend an hour with her, talk about her relationship with her coach, her experiences, uh, with ups and downs, uh, with injury and, uh, and her love and passion, which of course I share for the Western States 100 and the Western States of trail. So hope you enjoy it and stay tuned for, uh, the next episode of what it's like to be coached by Coop coming up in a couple of weeks. Take care. Bye.