Stephanie Case-Human Rights Activist, Advocate for Women in Ultrarunning, and Badass Trail Runner | Koopcast Episode 152

Hello, trail and altar people. Welcome to another episode of KoopCast. I'm your host today, Stephanie Howe. Jason Koop is still off, out and about, and AJW and I are continuing our takeover. We are both really enjoying this process, so hopefully you enjoy hearing from us as well. Today, I'm joined by a really good friend of mine and amazing trail ultra runner, human rights activist, and advocate for women in sport, Stephanie Case. Stephanie really needs no introduction as she's been at the top of podiums in many of the big, tough, mountain-long, crazy hard races. Most recently, she finished second place at Hard Rock, and she's done races including the Tour de Glacier, which is the 440-kilometer version of the Tour de Géant, which she's completed twice, and along with the Barclay Marathons, two-time participant, and many other big ultra races. Stephanie is also well-known for her work for women and inclusivity in our sport. She really spearheads some of the tough conversations, starting back with discussing pregnancy deferrals with UTMB and Katrine Pelletti, and all the way up to today,

discussing lotteries and quotas for women in races to give women the same opportunities as men to compete on this stage. And so I'm really honored, grateful, happy to share with you the conversation today with myself and Stephanie Case. Thanks for coming on with me today. I just want to dive in a little bit before we get going into some of the topics, just a little background on you. I think most people know who you are just from your racing, your presence in the ultra running world, and you've been on a few podcasts, so I think people are pretty familiar, but just to give a little background on you, you grew up in Canada. Just talk about that a little bit. You're growing up and getting into, I guess, trail and ultra running. Sure. Yeah, so I grew up in Canada, a pretty, I'd say just a pretty privileged, normal life, you know, unlike the crazy life I'm living right now.

But I didn't grow up as an athlete, you know, I didn't grow up as anyone who was particularly sporty. I mean, talking to you who've, you know, been involved in sports for so long, for the majority of your whole life, for me, it came quite late. I didn't really discover trail running or ultra running until probably my mid-20s when I was in law school. So that it was something, yeah, being an athlete just wasn't a part of my identity, I suppose. Yeah, and that's somewhat common amongst ultra runners. It's more of a mature sport. So you can find it later in life and have a lot of success. And kind of it just falls into your lap sometimes of like, oh, I'm running, you know, to keep my mental sanity, especially at something like law school. I did the same at grad school. And then you find yourself drawn to these trail races. And that it's like, oh, people run that far. I want to try that. Yeah. I mean, I got into the sport, I guess, through just wanting to try a marathon and thinking that that would be a crazy big challenge. And, you know, I'd watched on YouTube, I think from like the 80s of people, maybe before the 80s of people crawling to the finish line, you know, and these

incredible races and 42 kilometers back then seemed like a really long way to go. And I just in my head had thought it would be a life changing event. And so when, when it was a hard event, but not a life changing one. That's when I started to look at what else was out there. And started just exploring me outdoors more. You know, I went and climbed Kilimanjaro. I mean, I say climb, but Kilimanjaro is really much more of a, much more of a hike, a long hike. And I loved it. You know, I loved traveling to explore a new landscape, being with a whole bunch of people outside, you know, having this big physical goal, you know, being able to see this peak and trying to reach the top of it.

I found that quite interesting, because I just never done anything like that before. But it just wasn't going fast enough. I was with this big group of people. And every day, you know, I just felt like I wanted to move more quickly. I was that obnoxious person, I think, on the on the tour, who was trying to get ahead. And so, yeah, it was after that, when I started thinking, okay, is there some way? And I'd never heard of ultras before. I was like, is there some way we can combine the race part of the marathon with the challenge of climbing Kilimanjaro? And so I started getting into trail and ultra running through the multi-day race format. And so there was a 250k self-supported foot race, like Marathon de Sable. But it was the Race in the Planet series. And I just signed up for that one night after a little bit too much wine. I tried to convince a bunch of people to join me, and no one joined me. And I just threw down my credit card at, you know, two in the morning.

And then I was committed. And, you know, while back then, it's, it still seemed like this, that to me seemed like a crazy adventure. And I had no idea if I'd be able to finish. You know, it was well beyond anything that I had thought that I would be able to do. But at the same time, you know, I looked at who had run these races before. And I looked at who was signed up for the one that I'd signed up for. And I'm going to be honest, it was a lot of, you know, middle-aged men, and not particularly fit middle-aged men. And I thought, well, you know, if they've got the confidence to sign up, and if they've been able to finish these races, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to. And I went into it just really hoping to finish.

And my sister had told me, I remember before I left, like, oh, don't worry. If you can't finish, we love you anyway. Just try your best. It was meant to be very encouraging. But I don't think she thought that this was in my wheelhouse. And then day one, there had been a bunch of mudslides in Vietnam. And so we were supposed to do a marathon each day, and then a double on day five. And because of the mudslides, we had to do 100k off the bat on day one, when our packs were the heaviest. And I'd never run that far. I'd, you know, never done more than 50k in training before. And I ended up second overall that day, first females, there weren't that many females.

And you know, that was the first time when I just remember looking at my watch and seeing it clock past 50, then clock past 60 and 70 and 80. And it was this feeling like, holy crap, you know, look at what my body is doing. And, you know, it gave me the sense that there's so much more that we're that we're capable of. And, you know, who knows if they're able to run 100k or 200k or more, until you actually do it. I mean, it really does sound even to this day, it sounds ludicrous what we do. Like, yeah, that's, that's kind of how I stumbled into it. And then, you know, I'll be damned if I have to run another road marathon again after that. But yeah, it's, you kind of nailed it with ultras are such a life changing event. And the distance is, it's far and you can't replicate that in training. So a marathon, you know, it's, it's tough. And it's, it's a really hard race.

But when you're training for it, you can do training runs up, you know, 20, 25 miles. So it's like, okay, I can, I can reasonably see how I can finish this. But when you step on the line for 100k, 100 mile, 200 kilometers, that's a long ways. And it's like, wow, that's like double or triple or quadruple, what I've ever run before. And it's, it's daunting. But then, like you said, you start thinking about, well, other people can do it. So I wonder if I can do it. It's, it's totally a journey. You know, there's things that are going to happen. And you learn a lot about yourself. And that's part of what draws so many of us to ultra running. I've been doing a lot of reflection on why a race and that's part of it. It's not about results so much. And it's not about like time and pace. And I mean, sure, you can look at that stuff. But at the end of the day, it just kind of matters, like committing to something, working through it, working hard and getting to the finish line because it feels so good. So that's a pretty good intro into trail and ultra running and 100k right by that. That's, that's a big day.

Yeah, I just remember finishing and my brain was blown. You know, I thought, whoa, you know, if I can do, if I can do this, what else can I do? And my whole ultra journey, I think like many of us has been trying to answer that question. You know, what else can I do? What more is there? You know, I keep speed has never really intrigued me. Maybe because I'm not good at it. But I, I'm just really curious and motivated by that question of how far. And, you know, people sometimes ask me my, you know, when I did Toyota Glacier last year, it's a 450k nonstop race. And they say, how do you, how do you train for that kind of thing? And, you know, my answer is often like, you can't, you can train up to a certain distance, but at some point, you just have to be willing to, you know, jump off that cliff and be willing to dive into this, you know, huge void of, of ultras where it's, it's really unknown. It's, it's unknown what's going to happen to your body. It's, it's unknown what the weather's going to be like, it's unknown if your mind's going to hold up and just having the courage to, you know, really be willing to fall flat on your face, something so crazy. Um, that's what ultras are really about. None of it makes sense. Yeah, totally, totally. And, um, it's, you know,

you, you said you, you aren't fast, but it's, you've had some very impressive results in some of these bigger races with the most recent one being your second place finish at a hard rock, which, you know, is incredible, um, that this is the same sport, right? Like running, running is, is running. And, um, you know, you can have such a, there's like marathon running and track running, trail running and shorter stuff and longer stuff. And it's, you know, this is really a, uh, I guess a niche of the sport where, um, problem solving and other things like adversity and just how you approach and troubleshoot and, um, are comfortable with just what you said, like jumping in to the unknown and just going for it can really, um, make you successful in this sport.

So I think, I think that's pretty cool. I mean, yeah, I mean, hard rock was honestly, it was a bit of a fluke and I did get second, but I was, I don't know how many hours, like half a day behind Courtney, which is absolutely amazing. I mean, I just, I just loved seeing what this woman can do on, on the trails, but you know, when I happen to do well, I still see most of those occasions as flukes because again, I'm not, I am, I know that I'm not as strong as, as other women out there and I'm, I'm not as fast. What I am good at is, you know, puking and rallying. I am good at being able to move on zero calories while dry heaving. You know, these are things that I can do because I'm, you know, in some ways, the way that my life is and my work is, it's just complete chaos all of the time. And I'm used to being under trained. And so, you know, when all of that kind of comes and hits at me, I'm, I'm expecting it. I'm expecting things to blow up. Whereas, yeah, I think maybe some of the better athletes, it's, it's a bit of a tougher, they have further to fall, I guess, running around in the muck.

I can appreciate that humble answer. I think you're a very talented athlete and runner and you've had some incredible results that I don't think are a fluke. But I do, I do get what you're saying of the, just not just being able to rally and to go with the flu. I think that's a big, that's a big part of our sport. And I wouldn't say that makes it like a fluke. It just makes it that you're a really smart runner. You're good at working through these, these things that always come up in the longer races. And this might be a good time to just talk a little bit about, about your career. Um, because I think they're kind of for you. I mean, they, they both your career and your, um, your hobby, I guess they, they intersect. And so, um, yeah, let's, let's kind of dive into what that, what that career is.

Sure. Yeah. On, on the professional side. Yeah. So, so I, um, I described myself as a, as a human rights, uh, lawyer. Um, but a lot of what I'm doing day to day, you know, wouldn't be what, um, people normally think of as, as what a lawyer does. So I, I work for the United Nations, um, and I've been working in and out of areas of conflict, um, for, I guess, at least the last, um, decade. My background's in, in development and I'm really in, um, humanitarian law, human rights law. Um, but, um, working in, um, areas where there's humanitarian crises, um, or active, active conflict, really, that's kind of my, my niche. So, um, I've been, um, working in Afghanistan, uh, worked in South Sudan for a while, you know, living in a, in a tent, really helping with the, um, humanitarian response, um, after the, the conflict broke out there. Um, now, um, you know, eight, uh, at least eight years ago, um, in Gaza. And now I am, um, back in the Middle East. Um, I'm actually based in Jerusalem, but I, um, cover, uh, the West Bank, Gaza, uh, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria in my work. So I'm doing a lot of traveling to and from, I'm working for, um,

it's basically the UN agency that's, um, responsible for, um, Palestine refugees. So it's one of the, the oldest UN agencies. Um, and, uh, it, it, it has government-like responsibilities towards Palestine refugees, um, but is kind of in, in constant crisis in terms of, um, financial resources. So it's a, it's a really interesting job. I'm the chief of protection there. Um, and yeah, I, I love it. I, I love my work. Uh, you know, every day I, I wake up knowing that what I'm doing or what I'm trying to do, um, fits into a certain place in, in the world.

You know, I, I started off my career in, in corporate law doing mergers and acquisitions, uh, that, that wasn't something that I was planning on, on doing, you know, for, for a lifetime. Um, but I think, I think for, for me, it was really important to kind of follow what I thought my calling was because I, I just, you know, in my heart knew that, um, that there was some place for me in the professional world and it, it wasn't in Canada. It wasn't, uh, you know, in New York doing mergers and acquisitions. It was, you know, it was somewhere, um, somewhere abroad and, and probably in some tough places. Um, and so I just followed that. I followed that call and this is where it's led me. Yeah. And it's, um, I've heard you talk about your work and it's, it's incredible. And I look up to you for so many reasons. And that's one really big reason because the work you do is so meaningful. I mean, it's, it's so important. It's so hard. I mean, uh, you kind of like glazed over a little bit of like, well, I've worked in Afghanistan, but you've worked in crisis zones. Your work is like, to me, scary at times. And the training you've done to, to do on the side is like, to me, incredible and sometimes crazy of just running, running laps when you can. And, uh, I think of, you know, the work that a lot of us do, including myself of like, you know, helping people, like I help people better their nutrition. That's great. And it feels good,

but that's on a totally different level. You are helping people who have been persecuted, who are dealing with like, you know, their, their basic life needs. And I think that's a pretty incredible career. And I mean, what, what draws you to do that? Because I know your work is really, it's stressful, like from a lot of different angles. It is, it's hard on you. I worry about you sometimes when you're, when you're over there, but I know it's something that you love so much. Yeah. You know, I just, um, I feel like everyone has their own place in this world, you know, whether it's advising people on their nutrition, which is important and valid, or whether it's being a parent or, um, you know, my sister, she's an epidemiologist. Um, my brother does CGI special effects for movies. I don't know how to describe it in a more technical way. He works on computers and does spinning bullets and things and explosions. You know, all of these, all of these jobs are, um, important and fulfilling a certain purpose. And this just happens to be mine. And, you know, I think there have definitely been times when I wished that I could have stayed in corporate law, or that I wish I, I could have done something else. You know, I've, um, I, I don't, I don't want to

make it seem like I kind of do this work and just breeze through and everything's great. And, you know, it's, it is tough. You know, I've, I've had moments in Afghanistan where I'm just curled up in the fetal position, um, you know, either with, um, after there had been a big attack, um, especially in human rights, you, you know, you're, you become quite exposed to a lot of, a lot of trauma. Um, you know, I remember being in Afghanistan right, um, before the, um, there was, uh, elections, um, that were going to take place in the country. And we knew that, you know, the next day on election day, there would be an incredible amount of violence. Um, and we knew that people were going to get killed and injured and the weight of that and knowing that I couldn't stop it. I mean, of course I couldn't stop it. You know, there's, um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm only one tiny, tiny, tiny person and with a lot more important people, um, around and, and lots of more dynamics at play, but still, you know, knowing that this was going to happen, it just paralyzed me. And I just thought, you know, why am I trying to, to do some good in the midst of, um, such an incredible, incredibly negative, you know, environment, negative force. Um, and, you know, you have these existential moments in, in this kind of work where you think, you know, am I making any difference? Is there any point in this? Um, and it's, I always just come back

to, yeah, that, that just that deep seated knowledge that this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And, um, you know, maybe if I didn't follow this path, um, that I would be missing out on, on some way that I could, that I could be making a difference that I could be following my, my purpose. Um, and I don't want to miss that chance. You know, if there's one thing that I can do that makes a difference in one tiny place over the course of my entire life, then it's worth it to follow that path just for that one thing. And if I can do more than one thing, then great. Um, but yeah, it's, it's not, um, it's not for everyone. And I think that, you know, for my, my family and friends, there was kind of this thought that when I left Gaza in 2016, that I was kind of moving into a different phase, like, okay, you've now done the war zone thing. You've done the living in a tent thing. Now you've moved to Geneva and you're going to live a normal life, you know, meet someone, settle down. And that a few years later, I'd moved back to Afghanistan. And, you know, it's been this realization process more for the people in my life rather than me, that this is my life. This isn't a phase. This is what I'm going to be doing and what I will continue to be doing, um, for as long as I'm me, I think.

Yeah. And I mean, when you do have that calling and that passion to do something, even if it's really hard or there's, there's parts of it that are stressful, or maybe you don't like, I mean, that's, that's why you do what you do, right? Like you're drawn to it. It is part of you. And I've, I mean, I see you talking about it right now and I can see, I can see the passion behind it. And, um, I've heard you, you, you know, speak about parts of it and it, I mean, to me, it sounds like crazy, scary, hard work, but I also think, wow, like what an incredible opportunity to try to make life better for these people and, um, very supportive in you doing that. Um, but it's, you know, it's, it is like one of those, it's not for everyone, like you said. And, um, I, I, I do see how, um, like with, with that, with your job and the stress, like how running kind of does fit into that and actually makes you probably prepares you to be a good ultra runner in some ways, because you're used to working through stuff like that. Um, but so yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I think sometimes I could ask the question, you know, how do you, how do you do this kind of work and then train for ultras?

And they're often seen to be at odds. And in many ways they, they are at odds because I don't get to, you know, go running out in the mountains. I, um, yeah, I have lived in arm compounds where I have to run in, in loops, um, on flat ground or pull tires around. Um, or, you know, I've been out running and been detained by soldiers because of the places where I have to dump out my, you know, North face pack to prove that I'm not carrying any bombs in the back or, you know, just ridiculous, um, ridiculous things that you don't expect you to have to deal with on a, on a run. You can expect dehydration, but not, um, armed conflict. Um, but you know, while my work might kind of hold back some aspects of, of the ultra running and the training, I think really, I wouldn't be the, whatever runner I am now, um, if I didn't have that, because it's my, it's my fuel. It's, it's my motivation. It's my reason for, um, for being out on the trail. And, you know, when things get tough, when I'm in a race or, or whatever, I just remind myself, like you've chosen this, you know, no one is forcing you to be out here. You get to have this opportunity to be out here barfing, you know, in hard rock in Colorado.

And, you know, in so many of the places where I work, women don't have that chance. And when you put in that mindset, it just completely changes the dynamic of how you, of how you feel about those, about those challenges, those challenges become immense privileges, um, rather than, you know, opportunities to really feel sorry for yourself. Right, right. Reframing. Like I, I'm choosing to do this. I signed up for this. I paid for this. Yeah. I mean, that's a very good point. And it is a privileged opportunity. Um, and I think it's easy to get in the poor me of just like, Oh, I'm suffering. I've been puking. I've been dry heaving for hours. Why am I doing this? It's like, well, because I can, right. I live in a place where I'm able to create these opportunities for myself. I'm not just, you know, trying to get live, live my life basically day to day. So I think that that's a really great attitude, um, to get you through some of these hard races. And, um, I know you've been a big advocate for within human rights, but really specifically women's rights and, um, have combined the two passions, if you will, of, of advocating for women and running. Um, so I'd love to talk about that a little bit and what that's kind of opened or create what, what you've created within that.

Yeah. Um, so part of it is through the organization I, um, I established free to run, um, which I founded in Afghanistan in, um, 2014, which is really all about, um, supporting and helping to create female leaders in areas of conflict through outdoor sports and adventure. And, um, um, in places like Afghanistan or in Iraq where we are, um, also, um, operating, you know, these are places where, um, women are disproportionately affected by, uh, by conflict. And, um, it can often mean, um, due to, um, the pressures associated with conflict due to social and cultural norms, um, and, you know, patriarchal societies, really, um, women can, sometimes be confined to the home, either through duties that they are expected to do around the home or, um, notions about, um, you know, what would happen if, if, um, uh, the young women in the family, the 16 year olds or the 15 year olds, or, um, the 13 year olds were allowed to, you know, go out, um, away from their families for an afternoon, you know, out into the outdoors.

You know, these things are, are, um, freedoms that we really, I think take for granted, um, growing up in, um, in Canada or the U S or, or, um, other places. Um, but in Afghanistan and Iraq, it's, um, it's, it's a massive issue. And when you don't have women, you know, visible in public spaces and outdoor spaces, um, that, it, it, it, it erases a whole group of people from society and changes your views about, you know, what, um, the role of women in, in broader life. And so, you know, by actually finding safe ways for women to be able to boldly engage in the outdoors through running, you know, we're trying to drive social change and how, um, how women are, are, are viewed and what they are capable of doing, not just in sports, um, but in society and in work, in education and politics, um, a whole range of things.

And so, you know, my passion for that in the areas where I've, I've worked, um, it, it still bleeds over into, you know, the, the more, um, let's say the, the more vanilla, the more mundane, um, environments that, that we tend to run in, I still see gender equality issues, um, in, in the races that you and I compete in. And it's important to me that we continue to call those out. Um, you know, I've, I've talked with people that said, you know, our, our sport is so welcoming. It's so open, you know, everyone, everyone's allowed, everyone's welcome. Um, everyone's, you know, on the same, on the same footing. Um, all you need to do is put on your running shoes and, and show up.

And it's just not the case. You know, that's the perspective. Um, if you are, I think in the weight, um, majority, which, which trail running still is, um, or, um, particularly if you're a man and I'm, I'm speaking bluntly about this and I'm sure people will disagree with me. Um, but trail running and ultra running and the outdoors, it's, it's not the inclusive place that some people portray it to be. And you just need to talk to people who don't look like me, who, who will provide that, that answer. You know, I can't purport to speak on their behalf, but I can, you know, speak at least on, on the gender, um, side of things. Um, and, and that's, that's where my, my passion really is.

Yeah. And I, I totally agree. Um, ultra running is really a homogenous group of people and sure there's, there's opportunities, but it's not equal opportunities. And I'd love to kind of dive into that too, because I think it is starting to change, but very slowly. And I mean, even within our careers in as runners, I mean, I've seen changes, um, but it's still like moving at snail's pace. My first year running UTMB, I think it was 2015, 2016, I was eighth and I didn't know that they only did top five women. So I went to the award ceremony and I was just like, Oh, okay. Top 10 men, but only top five women. And that blew my mind, you know, because that's such a big race.

It's like the race, right? It's, it's one of the leaders in our sport and they're still not recognizing women the same as men. And I know on paper, sometimes it seems like there's equal representation, but it's never the same. And we can, we can dive deep into this, but let's start with races. And I'd love to hear what you've seen because you've raced all over the world and you've been in a lot of big races and some of them maybe do a better job than others. But what does it feel like being, um, I guess a competitor in a field that to me is dominated by men? Yeah. I think even in the most inclusive environments that, that I felt, there's still a, there's still a difference.

There's, um, I've certainly experienced, um, instances where, uh, male competitors think they're being encouraging, uh, but really being, you know, quite patronizing, you know, giving me tips before we're about to, um, go up a big climb. Um, you know, some might say, oh, that's, that's so kind. Um, but really it depends on what kind of interaction you're, you're actually, um, having it's, it's, um, in the framework of this idea that, you know, you're not capable of, of doing what I'm capable. So let me provide you some advice and help you. And then of course I just passed them as we're going up, up the climb. Um, but you know, it's something as, as little as that to something that's, that's a lot more, you know, blatant, as you say, you know, you've got to be a big deal.

UTMB used to, um, only recognize the top five women. Um, and then they recognize the top 10 men. And I've interviewed Catherine Poletti, um, uh, who of course runs UTMB about this. And when they changed their policy, uh, again, I'll, I'll be very honest on this podcast. It wasn't because she believed in something about gender equality. She said it's because the women just got faster. And so then the top 10 deserve to be recognized. And that for me is not a, is not a good rationale. And that indicates to me that we really do have, you know, a lot more, a lot more work to do, um, on making these, um, races more inclusive. I've had women reach out to me, um, about how they've had to drop out of races because they got their periods and there were, you know, no sanitary products available.

Maybe some people think that this isn't something race directors should do, but again, you know, these are things that might seem small, but are actually really easy changes that race directors can do to make, um, to make events feel more inclusive, to make them feel like they are a place where, where women belong. Most of the races that I, you know, toe the line at are, have, you know, less than 10% of women who are there. And it's not because women are less capable or women aren't interested in, in doing those races. It's because of all of the different, you know, societal pressures and, and cultural norms that we're still, um, dealing with, um, that make it hard.

There are more hurdles to, to jump through in order to get to that start line. And until we start to recognize that those barriers still do exist and we want to do something about them, then we're going to continue to see this, this disparity. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And I've, I have more thoughts on that, um, too, as, as a new mother too, of just being inclusive and, you know, that's a whole nother ball game. But like you said, some of these, these changes or these modifications to races seem really small, but they make a huge difference. And, you know, that, uh, racing with your period, that's not just like, okay, well, whatever, you know, like, I mean, if that's like a, it's a small thing races can provide that would just make it like, seem like you're not, you're welcome here.

You know, like if you're being supported, it's like having, um, medical supplies for like, you know, if you need it, if, if something happens during the race. If you have band-aids, why don't you have tampons? And you know what? They can also help you if you've got a nosebleed, you know, there's multiple uses for them. Um, and you know, these, these aren't hard things to fix and, you know, the whole pregnancy deferral issue. So, um, it was years ago and I wrote, um, just a blog back when people were still writing blogs, when I wrote a blog about it, cause I had a friend reach out who was pregnant. She didn't want to, to necessarily tell people, but she had, um, she found out she was pregnant. She had some big running goals that year and she was signed up for Laboreto and UTMB.

And she wrote to Laboreto. I think this was maybe 2015, 2016, maybe a little bit later. Anyway, um, she reached out to Laboreto and they said, absolutely. You know, you can defer your entry to next year. I think they even gave her two years and it was not an issue. And she did the same with UTMB and UTMB said, uh, no, you know, this is now a quite widely known issue and, and now, you know, policies are changing. Um, but at the time it wasn't really a talked about thing. Uh, and I think it's because so there are still so few women who are competing in these difficult races. And then the percentage who are pregnant are such a, you know, smaller percentage of that.

Um, it just didn't occur. I think to some race directors that they would have to take that into account. And for others, you know, it was really, um, it's still a matter of kind of education to understand that, um, you know, if you're going to provide race deferrals for injuries, um, you know, it's no skin off your nose to provide a race deferral for, for pregnancy. And that makes a massive difference in terms of messaging on inclusivity and, and, um, accommodating, you know, what is really, um, quite a huge physical mental event, um, for, for women. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is something that, um, races and brands are starting to recognize and be like, Oh, we need to like backtrack and like make this right.

And, um, I, I do think a lot of the big races do have pregnancy deferrals and I appreciate that. Although, um, to me now just having gone through it, you don't know what you don't know. And I guess going through and having a child though, I realized, you know, you don't just like, I, I, I don't know what I was thinking, but I pictured having a baby and then like, okay, I'm going to be running again in three months. And like, it's not like that, you know, you're still growing this little human. You're, you're feeding it. It's using, it's taking your energy. It's taking your time. And sometimes you're just not able to get back out there as quickly as you would like. And so a one year deferral is fantastic, but that's maybe not enough time. And I've actually run into that, um, with a big race of like, my son was born in 2020 and I wanted to race in 2021.

He was born December 11th. And since it was 2020, I couldn't defer to the following year. And that was really disappointing to me. Cause I'm like, well, I'm not physically ready. Like he was due in January, but too bad. He was born in December. So wrong year. Um, but I think just being more open and understanding these things take time. Like it's a trauma, a traumatic event for your body to go through. And again, we're just talking about being supportive of a whole group of people who want to do these races and how can we make it more, how can we make it feasible for them, for them to do it and still be mothers and still have careers? You know, it's, it's not, it seems like, you know, when you look at it and you take a step back, it's not a huge ask.

Um, but it's, it's something that's just been really slow to, to gather traction. So, um, yeah, that's, that's something that I think is, it's good to talk about because a lot of people shy away from it. And I think in terms of like races, like it's good to call them out. And in terms of like brands and sponsors, like having a pregnancy clause in a contract is, is so important, I think. And that's something that I encourage all women athletes that work with different brands to just like, Hey, talk to them about it. Make sure you have a pregnancy clause in there. If you don't, it's time to have a conversation because that, you know, 20, 2022, um, that should be something that's at least brought up or at least somewhat included in there.

And then what does that pregnancy clause look like? Because I'm learning that sometimes on paper, it sounds good, but then it's like, well, I actually don't feel that supported because there's a lot of things you don't realize that you need, um, or that would help you to get back to running. I mean, um, postpartum. So there's still, still a lot of room for growth, but it's a good, a good thing to talk about. Yeah. And I think it's, it's good that we are talking about it more and that we have, you know, seen some, um, seen some changes and in these, in these big races. Um, but that doesn't mean that, that there isn't more that we need to need to keep doing and keep pushing. So it's good for you to raise these things, um, these things as well. And, and also to be more vocal that, you know, you don't just bounce back after having a baby.

I think the expectations are sometimes a bit crazy because, um, you know, it is, it is, uh, I've, I've, I've never, um, you know, given birth, but it certainly looks like a traumatic event to me. Yeah. Totally. And, um, I've talked about this a little bit on other podcasts, but it's, you know, it's, um, it's great when there's women who can bounce back quickly. I mean, that's, that's fantastic, but that's not usually the story. And I think we need to be careful about, um, highlighting those stories because then it makes the mother who can't do those things feel inadequate. And if you can't, that is okay. Your primary job is to like, take care of this little human that you just created.

And that may mean your body isn't ready to, to run 20 miles yet. And that is okay. So I think being a little sensitive to that too, uh, is important and, and talking about it and talking about not just the good things, like the hard things. I mean, I'm almost two years postpartum. My son is going to be two, which is crazy. And I'm still not to where I was before. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm running, but yeah, I'm still like, there's still some funky things going on. And I mean, I think I've had a relatively easy recovery. So it just takes time and everybody's different. And again, it's good to talk about. Yeah, definitely. Well, I support you. I think your running's amazing. Thank you.

Thank you. You can, you can beat me into the ground on your worst day. So, um, yeah, I mean, I'm excited to spend some miles, share some, some trail miles with you. Um, when we were both in the same geographical location, hopefully soon. Definitely. So something that I wanted to ask you about, and, um, you, you opened up about this just recently, but you went through your own trauma this summer, um, when you had a miscarriage, um, and kind of like, again, something that's not really talked about. And, um, yeah, I, I, I feel like my heart, my heart feels for you so much. And, um, for what, whatever you're comfortable talking about, I'd love to just kind of go through that and, and how you're dealing with it now.

Yeah, no, thanks. I, I, I, I haven't talked about it, um, publicly yet. I mean, I, I did put, do a post on, on Instagram cause I thought it was important to, to get this out there. Um, but it was important for me to talk about with you today. Um, because, you know, there's a lot more, um, maybe not enough, but a lot more recognition about the challenges that mothers, you know, face after they give birth and, and getting back into the sport. Um, but there really isn't a lot of light, um, being shed on women before they reach that stage. And, um, you know, women who are trying to get pregnant while also racing, um, or, or training, um, women who are going through infertility issues and then women who, who have miscarriages and, um, you know, these things can massively, um, impact, um, and, and affect us.

Um, physically and mentally, um, you know, and, and, and that whole story of the before bit, the before you have the healthy baby bit. Um, I, I do think we need to, to shed a little bit more of a light on, um, you know, for me, I, I, I was never, I never felt that feeling that, um, you know, I, I had to be a mother. I thought, um, you know, I was kind of 50, 50, like if it works, it works. Um, but you know, my life is so crazy that, um, you know, I've gone many, many years being single. And so I was never kind of focused on finding that partner and settling down.

Um, but you know, I've got a, a wonderful partner now who I met during, during COVID. And, um, little did I know when I ran hard rock, um, I was actually pregnant. And I found out when I came back, uh, when I came back to, I flew back to Jordan and, you know, it was kind of funny. I hadn't really had a chance to celebrate and, you know, I'd had to leave my, my partner, um, at the airport and he was going back to the UK. And so I was in Jordan and I had gotten myself a, you know, bottle of champagne and it was the weekend. And I thought, Oh, I'm going to have, you know, a little champagne at 10 AM to, to celebrate just by myself. And I don't know what it was, but I had one glass and then I thought, and I took a pregnancy test and I was absolutely floored, um, to find out I was pregnant.

And then I really wished that I'd, um, you know, had more champagne before I found out. Cause once you know, you can't really do a lot with that. Um, and it, it, it changed everything, you know, in that, in that one moment when I knew that there was this tiny little, you know, at the time it was a puppy seed, um, the size of a puppy seed. When I, when I knew that, that I was pregnant, it just changed everything. And, um, and I was so excited to be, to be pregnant. I was so excited to, you know, I thought about this whole new life ahead, you know, of this, of this little poppy seed. Um, and you know, how that would change my life and my partner's life.

And, and I was, I was all in and, um, you know, all of my scans were, were okay. I, you know, I'm 40. So, um, I was having a lot of scans. Um, and then I, I, I, we had a heartbeat and I thought that the chances of miscarriage were, you know, dropped, you know, so dramatically once you have a heartbeat, but I thought I was in the clear. And then I went and for a week and was working in Gaza and came out and had another scan. And then there was no longer a heartbeat and it floored me. And I, you know, um, miscarriages are so common amongst women, but because we don't talk about them because there's so much shame around them.

Um, um, it, it, you know, you, you really have no idea, um, that you're not alone when that happens. And it, it, it doesn't necessarily make it better to, to know that other women have gone through this. It doesn't, but, um, you know, I had some doctors say to me like, Oh, you know, we see this every day, you know, it's a super common. I was like, well, this is, this is my first. And, and this is a traumatic event for me and I could feel myself feeling shame around it. You know, I, I hadn't told people at work that I was pregnant. I hadn't told my friends that I was pregnant. So then how do you tell them that you're no longer pregnant? And, you know, it was a whole, um, I just, I, I didn't, I didn't know how to navigate it.

And the only thing that I could come up with was like, I actually just need to be, I wasn't public about being pregnant, but I want to be public about no longer being pregnant. And the response, you know, once I kind of did this, this post, the response that I got was, um, quite overwhelming. You know, a lot of private messages, a lot of public messages. I had paramedics reach out. I had, um, partners of women who'd had miscarriages reach out. I had a lot of women reach out and, you know, women that I'm friends with, that I'm acquaintances with, that I'm close to, who I just had no idea what they had been through because they'd, they'd never said anything. Not that they should feel like they have to, but, um, it really gave me this, this indication that there are so many silent struggles, um, that women are going through and men do, you know, struggle in, in their own ways, but you know, it is a different experience when you're the one that that is happening to, and it's your body.

And, um, the, the struggles that I think women face, um, in a, yeah, in a very silent and invisible way, um, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pain with that. You know, I have friends who are very accomplished ultra runners who are trying to get pregnant, who can't get pregnant. You know, I, I had a friend say to me like, Oh, I'm, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. You know, I've, I've never made it to, you know, that far. And I just thought, Oh my God, you know, me feeling like I'm such a huge failure by having a miscarriage. She's looking at me as a success because I've had the chance to get pregnant. And, you know, every time she puts on her shoes and goes out running, even though it doesn't necessarily make logical sense, she's worried that, you know, she's impacting her ability to get pregnant.

And for, for me, um, you know, now having had a miscarriage and now, you know, being in this awful space of suddenly now at the age of 40, desperately wanting to be pregnant again, um, for the first time in 15 years, I don't want to plan any big running adventures because it is like admitting ahead of time that I'm going to be unsuccessful at getting pregnant. And I know that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense, uh, maybe to some people, but you know, my whole identity, my whole life has revolved around, you know, race lotteries, running adventures, you know, I plan the whole next year based on what is my running goal. And now I suddenly don't have that motivation because I just want to be pregnant and I am running so little right now.

And it's this massive conflict of like, how do I continue to do this thing that I love, um, with this other, this other thing. And, you know, it's new for me, but I know there are so many women that have been dealing with this, um, you know, for years and yeah, I just wanted to, to kind of, um, shed a little bit of light on that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank, thank you so much. I know that it's, it's a, it's heart wrenching and it's, it's hard to talk about. And like you said, there's, it's so common, like one in four pregnancies and in miscarriage. And, you know, you probably know several people who have had miscarriages and they've just never talked about it.

And it does change everything when you find out you're pregnant and you hear that heartbeat, you're connected to this little poppy seed and, you know, mourning a life that you never got to meet. That's like part of you. I, that's a level of grief that I can't even imagine. And like you said, there's a lot of shame in this. And I think that's another important thing to just make aware of. Like it is never a mother's fault. And I know that's something that has come up and does come up to women who are athletes of like, well, you shouldn't have been running. And that's so not true. It's, it's not anything that you do. You have zero control from the moment you get pregnant of like how this human grows inside of you.

And I think that's an important thing to bring up as well that, you know, it's, it's traumatic and it's, there's a lot of grief and like supporting women during this time rather than trying to, you know, tell them it's, it's their fault for this happening is I think like a big step we really need to take in and understand because it is, again, it's so common and not that that makes it better, but it just makes you feel not so alone. Yeah. And, you know, I, I, I certainly, um, experienced some of that, um, some of that blame, you know, from people who were very well-meaning, you know, they didn't, they, they didn't mean to cause harm, but, you know, questions like, oh gosh, you know, well, I mean, you know, those, these races that you do, you know, that, um, they're, they're just too much, you know, your work is too stressful.

Did you know that you were pregnant when you were running hard rock? You know, none of these things had anything to do with my miscarriage, but you know, the, the, the questions alone, um, you know, it's, it just puts it back on, on the women. And, um, it's, it, it was a level of, of pressure, um, that I, I don't think I've experienced in, in anything else. And, um, yeah, especially when you're going through such a traumatic event, um, you're feeling badly enough. You don't need, you know, that, that extra bit on top of it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, going back to trying to figure out like how to navigate, trying, you know, trying to get pregnant, recovering from miscarriage and balancing your, your running.

I think you, you give yourself grace. You're not going to figure it out overnight and you, you do what feels right. And that might mean not getting out of bed some days and other days that mean exploring trails and finding some joy. And, you know, it does, it does shift everything, but I think you can find a way back to your, your love for the trails and your passion. I think motherhood and being an athlete, like there's a lot of, they go together. They might not go together or they might not, um, look the exact same as how it did before, but it's such an important, important part. When it's an important part of your identity, you find that space. And although it might look different from the outside, it still feels, it feels satisfying.

And, um, I've found for me that trail time, the outdoor time is just really healing and therapeutic. And, um, I think, you know, that's, that's an important way to, to be your authentic self is to, to figure out that, that balance for you. So you have, um, figuring that out. What, what I will say to you, um, it's, it's an ask from my side is, you know, don't, don't let me be in this non-running space for too long. Cause I do think it's important to give yourself grace and space and, you know, listen to what your body's saying. But I also believe that you can't let yourself be in a downward spiral for, for too long.

You know, I had, um, I just, I just wasn't, I just wasn't running, you know, um, I'm still not running. I haven't run this week. I don't think. Yeah. And, um, I was talking with my brother and he said, you know, are you running? And I said, no, I'm not. And he said, can you do me a favor? Can you go running outside for me? And the whole time that I was pregnant, I would run on the treadmill, like little bits. I was, I was exhausted, but, you know, I think I did one run outside with, um, with John, with my partner, but I just hadn't been running outside, um, in, in, um, Jerusalem. I, um, and he said, you know, can you just do me a favor and just go run outside tomorrow? I was like, I just don't know if I can, you know, I just want to be on the couch.

He said, just, just for me. And I said, okay. And I thought in my head, just force yourself to do a little bit. And then I went and ran 20 K and, you know, during normal times, 20 K wouldn't be that big of a deal. But for me, this was massive. I mean, it was, it just felt like such a big accomplishment. And so sometimes at least for me, I do have to force myself to just go through the motions and then see how it feels. Um, because otherwise, you know, I worry that I'm going to fall too far off, you know, off, off my core. So that's, that's my ask to you is don't, don't let me give myself too much space or grace. And that's a promise. And I will personally come and take you out for a run when you're back in France and we can go explore some mountains together.

Cause I need that too. Um, that accountability or that social piece, because yeah, it makes it the barrier. It lowers the barrier of entry. So that is something that I will promise. Thank you. Yeah. So, um, we'll, we'll start to wrap this up a little bit so we can both get back to bed. Cause I know you've got a big day tomorrow. I am starting my morning, but, um, I might try to, no, it's totally fine. Um, but I just wanted to, to think forward about like, okay, so we talked a lot about like advocating for women, um, in the trail and ultra space. And just like a call out to races or, um, you know, race directors, sponsors brands, we mentioned a few small things, but what do you think we could do or what could race directors do to make them more inclusive to women?

And that could mean like smaller things such as providing tampons at aid stations or like the Solomon race that recently happened in the Bay area where they provided free childcare and lactation stations or the lotteries. Like, should they be 50, 50? Like, what do you see as maybe the, the key ways we could start to be more inclusive? Yeah. Thanks for asking that question. Um, you know, we had some of these discussions around hard rock, you know, I was brought into their, um, forget the official name for it, but basically the diversity committee. And so we, we had a lot of, um, discussions around, you know, what are the best ways actually to, um, to increase the participation of, of, um, women in, in the race. And of course the lottery is the big one for, for hard rock.

Um, I, you know, I think things like having childcare or lactation stations at, at races, um, those aren't necessarily going to, to hit, uh, you know, the main issues, the main, you know, a lot of, um, mothers, um, in discussions around hard rock said, you know, that's fine. But when I go to a race, I'm actually quite happy to have, you know, weekend to myself away from my kids. It's the childcare that I need for the entire year that I'm training. So, you know, if you want to provide a babysitter for that, that would really help me out. Um, which, which makes sense. But, you know, at the same time, um, efforts like that, even if they don't address the underlying issue, they are important in, in that they're providing a very visual symbol, a very visual message that like, this is a space for you.

You know, we are thinking about, you know, some aspects that, that affect you differently than, than the men. And so, um, I think that they can have an effect to help increase the participation of, of women who wouldn't even need to, um, to take advantage of, of any of those aspects. Um, but I do feel strongly on the, on the lottery side, you know, for races where it does require, um, a lottery to, to enter. Um, I think race directors should be doing more to be putting aside more spaces for women. Um, I, I know others, um, don't believe in, in quotas and, and they, they think that that's, you know, somehow unfair to, to men. Um, but I'm, I'm quite firm in my belief that, you know, even if we set aside 30%, um, in a lot of these races for women, you know, it's still not 50, um, but it would be a, a, a big, um, jump in, in, in the right direction because the barriers to entry are so much higher.

They, they just are. Um, and then, you know, all of the underlying, you know, issues that the more societal issues, um, there's no easy answers to those. You know, I know that there are, um, women that, you know, because of extra childcare duties or, um, are there issues like that, aren't able to take the time away from, um, from work or from home to be able to get the training in. Um, I think there's still, um, a lot more, um, I've, I've heard a lot more women, you know, talk about it being selfish when they want to train. Um, you know, they feel guilty about taking time away from their kids or their family or, or whatever, um, to do something for themselves, whereas you don't tend to hear that as much from, from the men, you know, that says something to me as well.

Um, or women who don't feel safe, you know, training at night because they don't have time during the day or, um, you know, in cities or, um, in remote places, you know, these are the things that, um, that still act as, um, as barriers that are harder problems to solve. But, you know, where we have, um, where we can get easy wins, I think we have to take them, you know, setting aside more spaces for women, um, having tampons at, um, at aid stations, you know, these, these are, these are small and easy things, have pregnancy deferrals, um, you know, having, um, diversity committees on the boards of, um, of, of races, um, you see, um, Western States, you know, fantastic, you know, they've got, um, policies, not just on pregnancy deferrals, but, you know, trying to make it more, um, inclusive for, um, trans athletes, you know, these are, this is the direction we have to be going in.

Um, and it's, it's not really an option in, in my view, it's, it's a necessary part of running, um, an event and an inclusive race. Yeah. Yeah. Not a matter of if, but how, and, um, yeah, we're just mostly speaking about, about women and gender, but yeah, it goes across the whole board of diversity and how do we, how do we be more inclusive and not just say like, oh, we welcome everybody, but actually show that. And I agree with you that lotteries are a great place to start. And I, I can argue that point too, of like, I mean, I would even go as far as saying like 50, 50, like setting aside quotas for women. That's how you get more women, right? Even though there might be less participation, there's a reason for that. And I know like men are going to say like, that's not fair, but also it's not fair that women aren't like participating in these events.

And this is how we, we, we level up. This is how we provide those opportunities. And that's not going to be forever that there's less women at some point, like women's participation could pass men's participation. And then they're going to want those 50, 50 lotteries. So whether it be setting aside quotas, and this is for different groups too, like minorities or trans athletes. Like, I think that is how we make it more inclusive. And, and like you said, just sending that message that we're not just saying you're welcome, but here's what we're doing to make you feel more welcome, like tangible, actionable items. So I think this, this is a great, I guess, just call out to races to just, you know, think about your inclusion policy and how are you having different representation of different groups of people, because that is how we're moving.

There's, you know, not a homogenous group of people who live on planet earth. Exactly. And maybe with that, this is a good place to wrap. So, um, yeah, any, any other comments or, or, uh, things you want to, you want to chat about? You know, I just wish that we could have done this with a glass of wine in our hands. It's more appropriate for me at, you know, midnight over here than it is for you at, you know, 4am over there. I don't know what's appropriate when we, when we first started, I was having ice cream out of the carton to wake myself up a little bit. Um, but yeah, we, we will, uh, have a, uh, we'll, we'll do a little chit chat, brain check with some wine or Prosecco or something when we're both, uh, we can do it in person.

So thank you so much for making the time. I know you've got a very busy schedule and I really appreciate you. And, um, thank you for, for sharing some of your, your personal story and just what you've experienced as, um, someone who, who works with a lot of women and people in crisis. It's, it's an amazing, amazing, uh, thing that you do. And we, we love and appreciate you so much. Oh, thanks. Thanks for the chat. I really appreciate it. All right. Well, get some rest and, uh, we'll see you out in the trails. Perfect. Thank you so much to Stephanie case for taking time out of her busy schedule to talk with me today.

I know she has a big meeting in the morning, so I appreciate her staying up late so that we could have this conversation. I really appreciate her openness and her willingness to talk about some of her experience with women and inclusivity in our sport, as well as sharing her own personal story of her miscarriage and how that grief has impacted her. It's important that we share these things so that they become more normal and that we don't feel alone when we're going through tough things. So thank you for Steph to Stephanie for, uh, opening up today and for sharing a little bit about her work and what she's done in the world of trail and ultra running to help make women feel more welcome in this space and above and beyond that for her work in conflict zones as a human rights advocate.

I couldn't admire Steph more and I couldn't think of a better person to have on the show today to talk with. So massive kudos to Steph and you can be sure that when you're back in France, I'm going to come over and get you up for a trail run so we can hold each other accountable. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'll link in the show notes, uh, to Steph's Instagram account, which is the ultra runner girl, as well as her organization free to run, which is the nonprofit that helps get women in conflict zones out to run. So thank you so much and see you out in the trails.