Running With the Kenyans and Rise of the Ultrarunners With Adharanand Finn | Koopcast Episode 51

Trail and ultra runners, what is going on? What's happening? Welcome to another episode of the KoopCast. As always, I am your host, Coach Jason Koop. And on this episode of the podcast, we have prolific podcaster and accomplished author, Adara Ann Finn. Adara Ann is the author of three critically acclaimed books, Running with the Kenyans, The Way of the Runner, and The Rise of the Ultra Runners, which many in the audience will be familiar with. Adara Ann's first title was named Sunday Times Sportsbook of the Year. He won Best New Writer at the British Sportsbook Awards, and he has twice been shortlisted for the biggest prize in all of sports writing, the William Hill Sportsbook of the Year. He writes regular feature articles for The Guardian, The Financial Times, The Telegraph, Runner's World Magazine, and many other publications. He's an accomplished runner in his own right, with 10 ultra marathon finishes to his name, and has a best marathon time of two hours and 50 minutes.

He and I have had many conversations over the course of years about how to get elite Kenyans into trail and ultra marathon running. And this is no easy task. There are a lot of hurdles in the way. There are a lot of barriers to overcome. But I think that is something that we can actually make happen, and we walk through how it can happen. So sit back, enjoy the conversation. Let's get right into it. Here's my conversation with Adara Ann Finn. Have you had a lot of traction from your book? Yeah, I think so. It's interesting. It's done very well in the English language. So in the UK, I'd say it's possibly my biggest book. Globally, like running with the Kenyans just was a phenomenon, really, globally, particularly in like Spanish and Italian, for some reason, they were like, totally into it. But yeah, it's, I find what's quite strange about it is, I kind of thought a little bit that people in the ultra running world wouldn't like it, because I was going to put everybody off ultra running. I thought that my experiences were just going to make people think, oh, no way I want to do that. And I've been totally surprised the number of messages that I get from people saying, oh, God, this book's dangerous. Now I want to do an ultra run.

Now I've heard this. And it's funny, I realize it's a bit like Dean Karnas's first book. I mean, he just describes how, when I read that, Ultramaritan Man, I thought, no way, I'm not going near that. But for other people, I was like, yeah, that's what I want. I want that, you know, I want that just pulling myself to pieces experience. And it seems the same reaction has happened to mine, which I was surprised by. I was like, really? You read that and you want to do it? Yeah, that's interesting. Things like that are good catalysts, though, because, you know, with Dean's book, and I think with your book as well, it brings out like the human element. It's actually like real people that are doing this stuff. It's not, you know, Martians that have descended from another planet that have some sort of physiological capabilities that are beyond normal humans. I mean, it's I mean, Zach is a great example of that, right? I mean, he's a he's a normal person. Yeah, you know, very humble, you know, upbringings, you know, hard worker and things like that. Yeah, that you can do these like incredible things on the mountain that, you know, a lot of people would just kind of look at and go, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, it's relatable. And it's, yeah. And like, in some ways, it's easier than it's easier to do an ultramarathon and get to the finish if that's the goal, which it kind of becomes for most people is getting to the finish, then say, you know, breaking a certain time in the marathon or running, you know, a fast mile or something, because that you got to have the ability to do that. Whereas with an ultra run, if you're not looking to win it, but you're looking to get there, it's it's just bloody mindedness, determination. And that's something people go, well, I could do that. You know, they think they can. Obviously, a lot of people don't make it. But it's a challenge that that is attractive to people. They're gonna it feels like it's a testing, testing who you are, isn't it? It's testing my own metal. Am I? Am I strong enough to do this? I want to know that myself. Well, there's that old saying that adversity brings out who you really are, it tests who you really are versus who you want to be. And ultra running is rife with adversity and, you know, being able to challenge yourself. So you actually do that is a there, there's a lot of soul searching that goes on as you've witnessed, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's funny as well. I wondered if it was just me that I that's just what happened to me. And so I was a little bit worried that people go, well, what's he talking about? I run ultra all the time. I don't have any of those issues. But again, it's definitely resonated with a lot of people. A lot of people, you just capture what it's like. So when you when you wrote that book, you know, ultra running at the end of the day

is a really small audience. We I mean, in ultra running, we like to think that, you know, that we're the shit and there's like so many ultra runners all over the world. But the fact of the matter is, it is the quintessential niche of a niche. I mean, it is a small niche within running, which is a small segment of the total, you know, athletic or health population. But when you were writing that, did you realize it would have such like it would kind of like transcend out of the hardcore trail and ultra runner category, like into other everyday people would pick it up and find it entertaining and interesting? I mean, I kind of I kind of wrote it hoping that would happen because I like my I I tried to do that with all three books, not make make them more of a story about an experience that you don't necessarily have to go through. You don't have to be someone who's been to Kenya or someone who's an ultra runner. You just it's like I might pick up a book about what I did recently about a kid who swam the English Channel. And I'm not going to go and do that. But it's a fascinating story, you know, when people push the limits. And so I kind of wrote from that perspective, I tried to be the out. So I was the outsider coming in, although I was a runner, I would never done an ultra. And so that's that was my goal. Yeah, it was to kind of bring it to a wider audience.

So almost you could live it through me vicariously, you know, you didn't have to, you didn't have to do it yourself. And in a way, I thought, like I said, I didn't think people would read it and then think they want to do it. They just read it and go, well, there's these crazy people out there doing this crazy stuff. And I've read about it. And that's fine. But then then more and more people have started, you know, on who've read that book and said, well, now I want to actually do it. How many have actually done it? I don't know. A lot of people say I've just read this book. And now I want to do an ultra. But then you'll see, you'll see, though, I mean, one thing that I've learned from from Dean and just, you know, getting his counsel over the years and hanging out with him over the years is that when when you write a work like that, when you have a book like that, that is about one specific thing, but people outside of that specific thing or who do that specific thing can identify with can identify with it, people will come up to you for years and go, this is what got me into whatever it is, ultra running, archery, kind of whatever the, you know, whatever the hobby or the sport group is. I think you're I think you're going to find that with that book. I think it's going to stick around. It's gonna have a long tail.

That'd be nice. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. And like Zach says, it's, you know, sometimes it's just people appreciating, like someone trying their best through through adversity and being faced with a challenge and coming through with it. And it doesn't even matter that it's running, but it, you know, like I say, it could be swimming or cycling or mountain climbing or just walking across the desert or something. So it has that sense of kind of human endurance, doesn't it? Human perseverance, which I think attracts people. But yeah, yeah, it'd be lovely if it lives on and people, you know, I don't know, I feel a little bit like, you know, when people say they, they, they, they start, they want to do an ultra because of my book. I'm kind of imagining like three quarters of the way through that race. And they're really at that point where they're like, Oh, what am I doing here? And they're going to start cursing my name. And it's your fault. I kind of want to, yeah, stupid book. I hate that book.

I'm going to burn that book when I get home. So I'm always wondering if that's going to happen. Nobody's told me they've done that, but they might've done. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, both of your recent books, right? Way of the Kenyan and Rise of the Ultra Runner and how they've, how you and I have had some dialogue about like those have kind of fused together. And I think, I think we're going to have to like walk back a little bit and set the table with, it was a project essentially like a pet project almost that you were trying to orchestrate where you wanted to bring some world-class Kenyans over to the United States and have them do a proper competitive ultra marathon. Let's set the table with that and then kind of go back and forth with what you and I went back and forth with during that time.

Yeah. I mean, unfortunately it was a ill-fated project, uh, and, and perhaps maybe isn't, isn't finished, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I think I began with, I think before I'd even started the ultra running, but I'd become aware of our training and I was starting to watch it. And I think I may have had this inkling, inkling that I was maybe going to write about it. And so I was watching the UTMB, the start of the UTMB and the talk and the, you know, the atmosphere is, is, is epic and the music's playing and all the stars on that front row, they're all standing there like the Kings of ultra, you know, endurance running basically. And, and someone who's just been living in Kenya, writing about Kenyan runners, I'm just looking at them and go, where are the Kenyans here? What is this for? I thought this was long distance running where what's going on? And then, which may not be the obvious thoughts of anybody else watching the UTMB. So that was, that thought stayed in my mind. Uh, and then I just, the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, these guys do all their training on trails. They, you know, they can, they can run, you know, they only run 42 kilometers because that's as far as anyone has ever told them about that. You know, they didn't, I would, I was going back and forth to Kenya at least once a year. And I started talking to people about ultra running cause I was hearing it and they just couldn't believe it. People were around like 50 miles, a hundred miles. They were like, it was like crazy thoughts to them. And they're like, well, why do they do this? And did they die? And you know, how do they survive? Crazy question.

Like even a 50 mile race. I had this guy saying, how many days does that take? I'm like, that's less than two marathons. It's not going to take you days. And so they had no kind of concept of it. So they didn't even know it existed. So you had these two kind of worlds of running like Kenyan long distance runners, and then long distance running, ultra running. And they didn't even know they existed. The two worlds basically didn't overlap. Uh, and so I kind of, there were, there, there are a few overlaps. There are a few things like, so there's the mountain running world, which is usually shorter than ultra running. And there, there seems to be for some reason, a kind of strong Ugandan team in that. And as we've seen on the track recently and on the roads, Ugandans are, you know, I mean, Uganda borders Kenya. In fact, they're the same ethnic group, the, uh, the Kalenjin who are the main Kenyan runners are also the Ugandans who are running all Kalenjin as well. So, you know, Europeans hundreds of years ago, split those two into separate countries, but they're the same group living in very similar terrain, living very similar lives. So these Kalenjin Ugandans were doing mountain running, which was interesting. Uh, and then you've got the comrades marathon, which is all the South Africans. And then the Kenyans and Ethiopians were coming down there and running that.

But comrade seems to exist in a separate world. Uh, mountain running seems to exist slightly separately from the ultra trail running world. And yet the ultra trail running world seemed to be where the buzz was from where I could see Killian, Killian Jornet, Jim Walms, Lee Zatmela, you know, uh, you know, all the names. So the, this seemed to be where the buzz was and yet the Kenyans knew nothing about it. And I, and I thought, well, you know, I let's do something about it. Let's, I felt like let's just introduce them to each other. Let's say Kenyans, there's this, this other bit of running you didn't know about. And this other bit of running, you know, I know you might've been hiding from the Kenyans perhaps a little bit, not, and I had that. I don't even remember. There's a, I basically, I began by trying to get some sponsorship.

Cause I also thought it'd be quite exciting because when a Kenyan runner is asking me, whenever I go to Kenya, they were saying, can you get me a race? I know if I go to a marathon race direct and say, I've got this, you know, 208 Kenyan runner, he's like, Oh yeah. I mean, you and 20 other agents have got a 208 Kenyan runner. I'm just not interested. You know, unless it's Ellie Kipchoge or one of those top guys, it's just another Kenyan to me. Whereas a Kenyan runner in an ultra race is much more interesting. Suddenly he's, he's unique. And so I felt like he had some selling point here. So I started trying to get the sponsors involved and yeah, one guy at one of the big, I feel reluctant to say names because I don't want to get myself into trouble, but he was, he was, he was like outright basically. I mean, you know, I don't want to use the big word, but he, you know, he, he basically said, we don't want the Kenyans in ultra trail running. He said, because Kenyans are just machines built for running. We want people with real life, real stories, real humans, even said real humans.

So, so there was a kind of resistance there. And he said that the Kenyans had ruined marathon running. They'd ruined cross country running by just winning all the time. And I just felt like, and I'd always had this, I'd written articles about this before, how people just see a Kenyan runner and just, it's just a Kenyan runner without getting to know the personality behind it. And every Kenyan runner is an interesting person as, as people have finally got to know Eli Kipchoge. I mean, he's been around for years and people weren't getting to know him. Now everyone talks about him as this wise guy who reads and is full of wisdom. Well, he's always been that guy, but just nobody took the time to get to know him. And so these guys have got stories. They're not all just Kenyans anyway. So I was a bit annoyed by that, but then I decided I just got to, I just got to make it happen. Got to get them over. And so actually, before I spoke to you, I think before the California thing, we actually got a guy over to run in the UK. I think that came first and he dropped out. He was leading the race and he drops out of the race because he'd hurt his toe.

Not a very good start. And that was an interesting, he was leading a 50 mile race. He was 30 miles in. He looked as easy as anything, barely breaking a sweat, comfortable, but he had a sore toe and, and he would just wouldn't carry on. We found some bigger shoes for him. He was just like, and, and I have like in the book, I kind of go into lots of thoughts about why this may be. And, and, you know, this all conjecture, it's just one guy, but, uh, he certainly wasn't going to risk his, I think he had thoughts of marathons coming up. He didn't want to risk himself, you know, for this bizarre scene that he was running around these woods, five laps around this wood in, in frosty England. He was like, I don't need this, you know? And, and so anyway, so he gave up, but then, uh, then I had a friend in California, uh, called Conyers, Conyers Davis. Now he, he actually read running with the Kenyans many years before. And, uh, he decided he wanted to get some Kenyans over from the book, some of the characters from the book to run the California marathon. And it was quite a funny story. Cause at that time I was actually writing my book on Japan. So I was living in Japan and, uh, he, he brings over Jaffet and Shadrack, two of the guys in my team in, in Kenya, but he's such a great PR guy, Conyers. And he's actually, he's like Arnold Schwarzenegger's, uh, publicity guy. So when Arnold

Schwarzenegger was becoming governor of California, so he's, he's just knows how to pull strings and this kind of stuff. So he fundraisers to get them over. This is all independent of me. I'm doing nothing about this at all. I'm in Japan doing something completely different, but I'm following it online. He gets them over and it's brilliant because he has them on CNN. He has them on the front page of the Sacramento Bee like these. And the people like these guys have come all the way from Kenya to run the California marathon. And I'm thinking every year there's Kenyans running the California marathon. Why is this new suddenly? And it's just cause Conyers had, had got the excitement going. I mean, he tied it in with the book, which was, I guess was a slightly different angle, but anyway, so they ran, they didn't do that well, but he, he coined this phrase, Kenya-fornia.

And he basically said, you know, getting Kenyans to California was, was this project Kenya-fornia. So when he heard about my ultra running project, he got really excited. He was like, let's get them to race in California. And so we picked with the same guy who dropped out for some reason, basically he, he, he felt, I felt like he'd managed it very well. He felt like he was a good runner. He was a 208 marathon runner. He just, he was keen to try again. He felt a bit bad that he dropped out. And so we decided to try again, uh, with, with Conyers backing and Conyers kind of publicity skills. And so we got, uh, Francis, his name was Francis Keegan and a female runner called, uh, Rispa Kimayo. And she's, she's, she's, she won actually, weirdly, I had, I'd met her before at a marathon. It turns out she was the 50 kilometer world champion, which he just entered on a whim, uh, the world championships and, and won. So she had some durability, clearly a 229 marathon. And I say, this was exciting. You know, these guys were going to go. And the idea originally was Lake Sonoma, I think Lake Sonoma 50. And so I just felt like, well, last time I just left Francis to his own advice, I thought we needed to give him some advice on training and coaching and what he needed to do. So, so I got in touch with you. I can't remember if I had, I had your book, but I think somebody possibly Gary Gellan told me to talk

to you. It was definitely Gary. And when Gary tells me to do something, I have to do it. It was definitely Gary. He's a good guy. And, and so, yeah, so you kind of helped me, uh, give these guys some advice on training and, uh, but they're quite funny in Kenya. They, they, they're not very good with specific training. And I don't know, I don't know where it all fell down. They, they, first of all, they said, we want to program. And I was like, you want to program? Okay. Well, you know, cause I was just thinking, just do some longer runs, you know, try eating on the run. Uh, and I think, I think you've, you'd be interested to know your thoughts on, on the whole process now, because you, you were kind of wanting to get some information from them, which you just, I just couldn't get from them. Yeah. You remember that?

Yeah. So to, to kind of further paint this picture a little bit, it's been postulated for years, just as you had alluded to in that run up that once Kenyans start to run trail ultra marathons, it's all over there. We're going to see the same dominance in the trail and ultra marathon space that we see in the marathon space once they get into it, but they're not interested in it for whatever reason, there's not enough money. They don't have the access. They don't understand it and on and on and on and on. And I, that, that story has kind of been like kicked around enough that I think that it has, I think that it has some chops. I know that my elite athletes that I directly work with are interested in seeing that happen.

I know that other elite athletes that I don't work with, they want the competition, right? They want to kind of settle this whole thing out. And so I've always, I've always thought that any way that I can help facilitate something like that, great. I can, I'll try to help facilitate it. I'll help facilitate it. And so you reached out to me and this, it was a weird athletic situation because I'd never worked with an athlete where I didn't have some sort of like direct line of communication. In fact, I don't know how many, how many, how many, uh, how many polls of how many telephone polls we had to go through to relay a message from the athlete to you, to me, and then bag, there might've been like seven different lines or whatever. But the one thing that was striking me, so we were trying to get these two Kenyans ready for Lake Sonoma, which is a highly competitive race.

And I think a race that's well suited for a traditional road runner to come in and be competitive. It's not, it's not that technical. It still has a good amount of climbing. And so it could be viewed as the, as the right race, right? It could be viewed as a public is kind of like a legitimately competitive race. It's not so over a road runner skillset that it's unfair or anything like that. And also not, and also not the other way around. It's not like a 50 K where you're kind of basically just tacking a bit of on the end of a marathon. So it was kind of a good meeting point, I think a hundred percent. But the one thing that, that kept striking me, and it's so interesting, it's so interesting to hear you describe, um, just how to hear you describe describing ultra runner, ultra running to the Kenyans of where they, it might, you might as well have been describing like professional wrestling or throwing darts or like something just like completely bizarre.

The questions that I was getting from you and the information that I was having to relay back, it's like, I wasn't even talking to somebody who had run ever, ever, ever before, much less be a world, a world-class endurance athlete. It's like, yeah, you got it. Like learn how to carry a water bottle. Okay. Let's step like, let's step one. Let's, let's eat a gel on your run. So, oh, we don't have gels. It's like, okay, let's figure out how we're going to get them gels. Like very, very, very back, back down, back down to the basics. And the, the outcome of the story outside of like, just trying to like rudimentary, like get it off the ground is nothing ever ended up materializing, which is really unfortunate. Yeah, it is unfortunate. And it, and it was, some of it was down to bad luck. I mean, I mean, yeah. Yeah. The water bottle thing, I remember they, they, they were like, what we have to carry the water. You know, they use the marathons. It's on the table. They're waiting for you. You go every 5k, you grab the water and, and yeah, things like that were just so alien to them that, but that, that's where you had to begin, you know, and that's how, if it is ever going to happen, somebody is going to have to go through that process with them.

And, and, you know, there are things you can learn. There are things you can, you know, they're not unsurmountable problems. And although they run on the roads, like I say, they do all the training on the trails, particularly in Ethiopia, actually, they, they, they run on mountains. Like in Kenya, it's kind of rolling hills, but in Ethiopia, they do a lot of the training on, on kind of very steep mountainside. So it just, to me, it all made sense. The other thing I found quite interesting is I, the more ultra runners I discovered, uh, and I asked them to take, and it was particularly these guys in the U S it's kind of a more of a U S thing that guys come through like the college track system. Like in Europe, in Europe, they often come through hiking or something, you know, they're like mountain people. Uh, but a lot of them in like, so Zach Miller and Jim Walms, they're the two examples on the top of my head, but it was more than that. I had been steeple chases at college. And of course, of all the events that Kenyans dominate more than any is the steeple chase, right? Cause they can, they can deal with hurdles and obstacles. They don't need flat, smooth road. This is just cause that's all the races are on.

So, so yeah, it was exciting. I mean, I don't know if you want me to tell how it didn't happen for your listeners. I can, I can go to the catalog of disasters that happened as a result. Let's take their catalog is a great word, great way to describe it. Let's take like the top two, but I, and I, I think it, I think it is actually interesting because a lot of times we put these like sub two 10 men marathoners or sub two 35 women marathoners, two 33 types of women marathoners kind of up on a pedestal that they can do any type of running race. And the way that the whole house of cards crumbled with this initial project with like Sonoma illustrates just the opposite that you actually do have to take some very deliberate steps in order to be prepared for these. So how did it all, how did it all start to, how did it all start to crumble? Yeah, exactly. I mean, in partly, right. It's the, it's the whole system around Kenyan running, right. Couldn't deal with ultra running.

One thing that's quite amusing is they have like, they're used to running, particularly the road runners, 10 K half marathon and marathon. And, and generally a half marathon pays more than a 10 K and a marathon pays more than a half marathon. Right. So there's this idea of the further you run, the more you earn. Right. And then you get the ultra running and the money goes down, but you're running further. They're like, wait there, I get 10,000 to win the marathon and 1,000 to win the ultra marathon. That doesn't make sense. So, you know, the whole idea of, you know, a lot of these guys and Killian's obviously the key example, but lots of the top ultra runners are, are not surviving on prize money. You know, that's not how it works. It's a different model. And so that was a big issue. Uh, and in some ways that was the first problem because then we, we had them set for Lake Sonoma.

I think France has got injured. I think that's what happened. Yeah. And then Rispa at the last minute pulled out. She did another race. She got offered a place at a marathon and she just didn't even tell me just like two days before I'm going to run, run, run, run marathon. So that was a disaster. And, uh, yeah, exactly. Uh, you just, there's, there's a lot more groundwork. And I was a bit naive thinking I could just approach a couple of Kenyan runners. I went in there and said, you want to run an ultra marathon? They're like, yeah, great. Because they're getting paid to go to race. But what I didn't know is they've got managers and I got to deal with their managers. So, so we then, we then carried on because then we decided, okay, that failed, but let, let's learn from our mistake.

Let's go to the managers rather than the athletes. And so we found this manager who was actually Rispa's manager in Italian guy. And now, now we, now the next race coming up that we could, that we could target. There was again, 50 miles, not too technical was, was a North face 50. And this particularly worked because it had a decent prize money, you know, so this was, the incentives was building. And so he, he was interested in this. Uh, and so we got Rispa and, and by now Francis had kind of moved on. I think he won, won a big marathon somewhere and he was like ultra running. He didn't need, didn't need us anymore. He was back to the roads, but this guy, Antonio, the manager said, well, I've got an Ethiopian guy who came second at comrades.

So that was interesting. And then I'd already been thinking that the Ethiopians do more kind of mountain, more technical running. They actually run on these very technical trails a lot. Yeah. So I thought, okay, well let's get the Ethiopian guy in Rispa. Uh, and then, and then it was just, you know, the gods were against us by that point, because then it was the wildfires in California canceled the race and Rispa didn't get her visa anyway. So she never got to any of the races. He, he actually, cause the race wasn't canceled until about three days before. I don't know if you remember, it was a couple of years ago. Yeah. So he turns up in California and then finds the race canceled, which would never happen in a road marathon. You're not getting a road marathon canceled by wildfires. No. Well, exactly. Well, I guess if there, it would have had to be there.

Right. The air was like, I remember that year that I think San Francisco, probably like it is now, it was a few weeks ago. I mean, it was, I don't think it was safe to run, but he, uh, he ended up running anyway. Then there was this idea to run JFK 50, but then it was Thanksgiving weekend and the flights to like from California to I think it's Maryland or New York, somewhere on the East coast. Anyway, we're just, you know, astronomical. And it was, uh, so he ended up running a road marathon after all. Of course. So this whole thing has been a shit show. Is this, is the, is the summary of it. I mean, at every step, there's been something that's gone wrong. Some point of preparation that has gone South nature has intervened, but I do feel that I still, even though there have been these like novel attempts and this is all due with all due respect to you. Cause you put in a lot of, you know, effort for this. I still feel that it's a long way from materializing into something that's sustainable. Whereas you put it, it's part of their running fabric. Cause right now it's just like, you know, we're having to like cherry pick athletes out and make these one-off situations and things like that. And they really don't understand it. So the gap between where they're at right now and, and, and where they could be, where ultra running is like a part of their running fabric, just like 5k, 10k marathon is part of their running fabric. I think is, is, is a long ways off.

But I don't think it necessarily would take that much because I think if you got a few guys coming back from, you know, what they call in Kenya, they call it abroad. It doesn't matter where you go, you go off and you come back with money. Everybody wants to know what's, what's happened to that guy? What's he done? And I think if a few of them could get some success in it, it would snowball. Because the thing is the training is, I think obviously there's a lot to learn in the training, but you know, they're happy to go long. They're happy. There's, you know, they'll often go for 50k like training runs just because they feel like it, you know, not all of them, but some of them, and they can do that. No problem. And they can go on the hills and they can go on the trails, but it's, it's the mind. It's understanding the ultra running world and how it works and how, and just having this idea that it is an option, that it is a, and like dealing with that model, that prize money isn't necessarily going to be as big, but like in a 10 where I spend most of my time when I'm in Kenya, for every athlete who's won a marathon, won a half marathon, there's 20 who could probably run a two sub two 15 marathon could probably run a decent ultra marathon, but aren't doing anything because they can't get out of the country. So they're all looking for opportunities.

So, you know, if you, you know, took them on long training runs, got them on the hills and worked out who was good at that. I mean, it would be a big project. That's the thing I was dipping my toe in and I don't think you can, you can't dip your toe in. It would take one of these managers to basically go, okay, let's set up an ultra running team. We'll get, and the other thing they wanted to train. So they had this problem where they didn't want to do this long training on their own. So Kenyans like to train in a group, but there was only the two of them. And one was male, one was female. And so they were at different speeds and they were like, well, I went there. They said to me, I want you to pay for someone to be my training partner. And I was like, well, you know, we're not like, we're not like falling, you know, sinking in money. You know, it's like, this is a small budget project. You know, we don't have like Salomon or Nike behind us, but you know, I think you'd need like an, almost like an ultra running team. It's kind of interesting because somebody went into it and set up a cycling team is much more of a leap than ultra running, you know, from, from marathon running to cycling. And that's like, well, whereas ultra running is much more feasible, but it needs someone with a bit more time and a bit more patience.

Okay. But here's what ultra runners like this audience is, is kind of dominant in the United States, right? Yeah. The performance piece of it, the proof will be in the pudding. Like we can speculate all we want to, oh, they're going to come over and dominate. Oh, they can't figure it out. Like whatever, like that's all speculation. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm an, an advocate for athletes and just like, but the athletes tell that story. Right. But I think from a community standpoint, the ultra running community would kind of want to know, well, is this something that they are going to be a part of, be a part of the community, or is it just going to be something that they just kind of do? Right. Yeah. What's your, you you've been there, right? You've, you're one of the few people that has an intimate level of knowledge within ultra running, you know, how community centric we are and with the runners in Kenya. Do you think, do you, what do you think about that aspect? Like just being, having ultra running being part of more part of like their fabric or their community?

Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting question. And again, it is theoretical, but I, you know, like, so this guy, Mohammed, who went to the race in California, he ended up, he got really into it. He ended up, I mentioned the last line of that chapter is he ends up handing out Thanksgiving turkeys with Arnold Schwarzenegger. But he's not like... Bizarre ending to that story. That's so hilarious. It's brilliant. I've got some brilliant footage of it as well. And Arnie's introducing him as the, one of the world's greatest runners. What he means is like, because he's Ethiopian, but like he actually said, and we have today one of the world's greatest runners, Mohammed Teman, who's obviously not, you know, he's thinking, wow, that's a big accolade for me. But, but he was sticking around, you know, this was like the night of the race. He was there at the, at the post race event, handing out the, the turkey. So I think it all depends on, there is, there is a sense and Kenyans do do this and Ethiopians do this where they're going to the race to make the money. And I think it depends on the race, if they include them or not. And I think if they turn up and they're just bust into the start, they do the race, they're whisked off back to the hotel, they're taken to the prize giving. That's all they'll do. They're quite happy with that. They're quite happy with that. But actually for a lot of Kenyans, it's, it's two things going, getting a race aboard. One is, is the money, but the other two is the experience. And they really do that. I had this guy, Jafet Koech come over for, for races.

He was, he was like my best friend of the Kenyan runners. He wasn't a particular star runner, but he came over, he did okay. And if you like, he did, came second in the Edinburgh marathon in Scotland, but he, he would just, he would love it. And he would walk around Edinburgh the next day. And he was amazed because people would recognize him from the race and he'd be like signing autographs. And he was like, this is amazing. And he was so happy, but he was so happy to go back to Kenya and tell the stories. I got to tell people all the stories. And then everyone was like, he went abroad. What did he find out? And it, and so they do see it as an adventure. And he says his dream was always to travel abroad. And they hear these stories of runners going abroad. And I've seen both sides. I've seen races where with him, where I've been with him and where you're just basically in the hotel room, you're taking the start of the race, race finishes, you take them back to the hotel, take them back to the airport. And I feel like they're okay with that. I mean, they basically take things as they come, everything for them.

If they're not like slogging their guts out all day, digging the field, which is what their parents did and their cousins do and their brothers and sisters do, they're happy. They're in a nice hotel. They've been whisked around, but give them the chance to get involved. And, and I found in my experience with the Kenyan runners I've been with, they're really keen on that. And I think if a race did that, and, and I think with ultra running, it's not, I wouldn't necessarily be any different, but I think it would happen more likely to happen in ultra running because I think that's the nature of the sport. It's like, it's not as clinical as some of these big marathon races where they're just like the elite Kenyans just to kind of get the times out, you know, it's all about times there, the race to qualify as a certain bronze level, silver level IAAF race needs to have certain times achieved and there's time bonuses. The fact of them just being there, being a Kenyan is exciting.

And the whole community would, I'm sure almost, I couldn't imagine an ultra race where that wouldn't be kind of exciting for everybody who's there. I mean, the one guy, the one race we did get him over to, we've got France is over to the UK. I remember, I remember cause I actually, uh, ran around, I think it was, it was five laps. And I think on the second lap, I just decided just to kind of follow them just to, cause you know, they were running at a pace. I could just about do 10 miles. And, uh, this, this other guy in the race thought I was in the race. And he said, he said, can you believe it? We're running against the Kenyan. He was so excited. And, uh, and like you say, some of the runners I spoke to, I remember Sage Canaday and in the U S particularly Zach, uh, and, um, Jim Walmsley as well. And he was interesting cause he, he, I mean, what I was going to say is that they were, they were excited about the opportunity, like you said, to, to kind of test themselves against these guys. And, and I think there was a sense that they might be this good on the road, but when they step into our territory, it's going to be a more even fight. And we, we, you know, we might show them a thing or two here. And Jim Walmsley said that he said, and I think it depends. I think there's a massive difference between 50 miles and a hundred miles. Yeah.

Massive difference. So he said, you can't take like a two or eight guy and stick him in a hundred mile race, like Western States, for example. Now that would be a real test. And then there you'd need a much bigger leap of, of kind of culture and training and a hundred percent. And, and, and that would be more interesting in a way because they, they're the, in some ways, the biggest races are kind of the hundred milers that you think of the biggest races, Western States, UTMB, Spartathlon, you know, they're, they're longer. And I think for, for better or for worse, they're, they're the races that, but you'd have to build up to that. Yeah. And that's what I've always told people. It's like, first the ultra running community is a very accepting one. Like we welcome people with open arms.

Doesn't, doesn't matter where they come from, what their background is, what their socioeconomic status is or anything like that. And you've seen that firsthand. Like it's all one big, you know, happy family out there. And so to the point to where, you know, people come in that are not traditional ultra runners, it doesn't, we don't care. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if they're elite runners, not elite runners, whatever walk of life. I think that in general, it's a very accepting, accepting community. And so to your point to where we can bring an athlete in and not just treat them as a commodity, right. To raise the profile, the race or raise the profile of the situation or whatever, really treat them as part of the community. I think we'll check that box, you know, a gold star next to it. Um, and then the second thing is, is, but this is me predicting things. And if COVID has taught me anything, I'm horrible at this, but I'm still going to do it because I don't mind being wrong every once in a while. But I do think that the learning curve is going to be, it's going to be slower than what most people realize because the sports of marathon running and trail and ultra running are quite, are quite different. It's not Venus and Mars or Pluto and earth or something like that different, but it's different enough to where you just can't plop yourself in and expect to have success. And that difference is particularly accentuated when you start to go up in distances, you mentioned a hundred K a hundred miles and kind of, and kind of even

further that, that difference is then magnified. And so, yeah, I mean, let's just say there was a program, right? You had a Kenyan team and they all trained together and they all learned and they got some sort of counsel and advice on how to adapt their physiology and their skills into a 50 K or a 50 mile. They'd come over and they would have some success, but that would probably be the worst that they would do because every year they would get to build off of that. And you've seen the culture there. They learn from each other, right? Yeah. So that group comes back, they filter out the information to everybody else and everybody thinks it's awesome, hopefully. And then you get more people and then you learn from those mistakes and then you get more people to do it and they learn from those mistakes. And so, yeah, we do it as a one-off, a total like one-off type of deal.

It probably is going to, it doesn't have a very high likelihood of succeeding. Let's put it that way. But if you set it up as a multi-year proposition year after year after year, that's where it actually has some teeth to it and is more interesting from my perspective. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hundred percent agree. And in some ways that's, you know, that's how the Kenyan success has happened in some ways. It's, you know, that's what happened. And then you end up in this situation where you've got so many runners trying to do marathons and half marathons that, you know, you've got to find some, some talent there. And, and, and if you just pick one random Kenyan guy, because he's a good marathon runner, you know, it's like, you know, the chances one in a thousand that he's also going to be a brilliant ultra runner. But if you take a thousand, you're going to find the one who could be a brilliant ultra runner. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it, I know exactly what you mean. And in some ways my, my project, uh, yeah, it didn't really have the, I couldn't get the backing and we didn't have the scope, uh, and, and which is a shame and, and perhaps it's something I should revisit or, or if not me, somebody should, because I think, I think at the end, eventually, you know, when, when ultra running, you know, is going to be an Olympic sport, hopefully one day where it's like, uh, but it's like, if it, if this happens, you know, if it becomes this kind of global sport, I mean, there's no reason why there shouldn't be people from all over the world. I mean, it's, there's another interesting story, which is completely unconnected, but you know, the Chinese

of before COVID struck and China became isolated and everything's got fragmented, but like last year, the year before 2019, the Chinese were starting to do very well. And the year before in, in some of the, the big mountain races, there was the Hong Kong. I mean, I know that's on home territory, but I think there were some big names from the U S went over there and the year before they, they, you know, I think, I think maybe Dylan Bauman won it or Hayden Hawks or someone like that. Tom Evans from the UK was second. That was 2018, 2019, the same kind of caliber athlete went over there and none of them got in the top 10. And, uh, and then UTMB, you had, uh, one of the races was won by one of the Chinese women. There was a guy second in the CCC.

So, and apparently I haven't been to China. I was just before COVID struck. I was on my way to do a piece about ultra running in China and I was very excited about it. And, and, you know, that it's not just the Kenyans, there's other parts of the world that maybe there's, there's potential there. You know, they've got the mountains, they've got a massive population. They've never really got into road running, but if they got into, you know, maybe the Indians or the South Americans, there's, it's a potential, you know, all over the place, but, but these things need a fire. They need a light. They need to spark. And then that spark needs to catch. And, you know, it, it, that's what happened in running in Kenya, but it could happen somewhere else in ultra running. Well, the, the trail ultra running scene in China is off the charts. Just hardly anybody knows about it because it, even before COVID it was so isolated and it's hard to get information out there. And we've seen it. I mean, there's, there, there, there are Chinese runners that come out of China and they compete in whatever races and they typically do pretty well, but there's a whole scene within their country that, you know, largely goes unheard of and underwatched and, and underrepresented in terms of, you know, how, how good they actually are. So what I, what I hope, and this is like a sinister hope of mine, you know, in my evil universe here that after this podcast airs, there, there's some people out there that go, Hey, you know what, I'm going to help, I'm going to help make this happen.

So if they come to you, we'll put all of your contact information in the show notes so you can get all the peanut gallery coming after you and everybody else. If so, when somebody comes, you say, Hey, we're, we're going to make this happen. We've batted around a few like first steps to like, to catalyze the whole situation, but what in your estimation are like the linchpins and, and pulling it off and making it sustainable? Yeah. Well, I think, I think it would be to establish a group in Kenya. So they're, they're kind of a group of ultra runners. So they're, they're like, there's all these training camps in Kenya and there's 20, 30 athletes in there. And they're very cheap to run because these athletes, they're not being paid to be in that camp. They're kind of, they, they pay their way and then they become part of this group. They train together on the basis that they're all under the same manager. And then that manager will do his best to get them. He's just looking after them, but he's, he's not paying them to be in his group. He's, they've just got this understanding yours. They do sign a contract, but the money, money trains his hand is when they get a race. So you'd set up a training camp of ultra runners, I think is the idea.

And you'd need a, you need a manager. Now, obviously for that to work, because there isn't the prize money, you'd need a sponsor. Now that would, that could be, I mean, this cycling team in, in, in it is actually sponsored by a French hedge fund manager and it doesn't have to be a clothing company. You know, it could be a very rich individual. So hint, hint, any rich individuals out there, but it could be, you know, it could be a clothing company as well. It could be a, you know, an ultra running, I don't know, you know, Salomon or someone could say, well, let's, let's set up a Kenyan ultra running team, you know, and that, that's what it would take. And I think then that group, you'd have to have the right coach. You'd have to kind of, you know, and then, then they'd be working on a schedule that they're, they're training for ultra running. They're not, they're not marathon runners who are just thinking, if I get a chance, I'll do an ultra run. Like you said, you can't, you can't, I don't think you can be training for both. You basically, you make that commitment. Okay. I'm working with this manager. He's going to get me ultra running. I'm going to do ultra running and, you know, and that doesn't seem, I mean, while that, that would be a leap for Kenyans, it would be a leap for the Kenyan system. It doesn't seem unfeasible to me. No, totally. That's exactly what I was thinking as you were describing that. I'm like, all of those elements are actually pretty easy to orchestrate. It's really not that much money that you'd be talking about. You know, it's not like you're asking for a hundred million dollars or anything like that. I mean, it's way, way, way less than that. And there's enough people that are interested to facilitate it. There are people like you, there's people like me, there are people like

within the running industry that think it's a, that think it's an interesting to do that. I think that there's enough like people power to, to kind of pull it off. I want to bring up kind of one, like really specific thing that always generates a lot of controversy in the marathon, in the half marathon, 10K, 5K, 5K world. And this is especially kind of important as we talk about the way that these teams are kind of orchestrated where they're all underneath one manager. And that's with doping and doping control, which is, you know, is really problematic, especially in smaller tier races where there's very little oversight from a national governing body or from the race itself, from the IOC, WADA, whoever has jurisdiction over, over the particular event.

And the reason it's, it's, it's the reason that it, that it becomes kind of like a really charged subject is because there are a lot of agents that are just quite frankly, exploitative of these athletes. They'll bring them in, they'll dope them up, they'll go win races, which benefits them, right? Cause they're taking a cut of the prize money. And somebody from the outside looking in that knows running says, this is the perfect situation for that because there's no, there are no rules in general running. I mean, we could barely standardize the courses sometimes much less have much less having a anti-doping authority. So I just, I don't have a, like a particular, like pointed question with that, but other than to open it up for a dialogue, because it is an, like, it is an interesting subject and one that people can kind of point to that goes, that goes awry.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's that, that, that would definitely be a difficult issue to please because it's not always the managers who are doping up the athletes. Often the athletes are going off and getting the, the EPO usually themselves. And it tends to be the, the managers who basically, they're not so much doing it, but they're just turning a blind eye to it. Right. Not all of them. Some of them are, some of them are very strong on it. And if there's any hint or any whiff or any rumor, they come down on it, but other ones are like, okay, I'm, I can't please him. He's got his own mind. You know, he does what he wants. You know, I'm just his manager. I just get him the races. And, and, you know, and it's quite well known which managers are which. And, and that, yeah. And also, like you say, it's the smaller races where it's more prevalent because A, there's less testing.

B, these guys have got less to lose. They basically, if they go and run, then they haven't done many races. They're not famous in Kenya. They're not famous globally. They get caught. They're just a one line report somewhere in the athletics press. They disappear. They've got their money. They want some money. It's worth it for them. You know, the biggest stars like Kipchoge, in my mind, I'm not, in my mind, are not doping because they, they have built this up slowly. They built this reputation. They built this following the, you know, they're like the, the elders in the, in the, like the, the chiefs in the, in the, in the community, you know, the people look up to them and they've got a lot of reputation there. But I know, I know a couple of athletes who've been done for doping and they don't seem that bothered. I mean, they're obviously not running anymore.

They just, but they want enough money to have a house. They, they kind of carry on living in the community. People don't shun them. And so it is, yeah, I think that would be a big problem. You'd need, you'd need that group to be very well pleased, very well educated. I mean, I think, like, you know, you've just thrown this at me now, so I'm not, you know, obviously it, it, I, I agree. It would be a thorny issue, but I don't think, I think the manager is key in some ways in the group and the, the way that group, their culture is built within that group that like, we're a group. We're not, you know, we're not, I mean, this is a key part of what our identity is. You know, we're not one of these groups. If someone gets caught, we don't just go, okay, well, he's not getting any races, but he still can train with us. He's still our friend. It's like, you know, zero tolerance would be needed and all that kind of stuff.

It almost seems like you need some sort of like internal testing protocol. Like a lot of the, I'm going to use this example, but it's not a very good one. Somebody's going to throw and throw a frigging rock at me for using it. But like some of the cycling teams tried to do that where they have a level of control that is in, in quotes, very heavy quotes above and beyond what they would have to experience from a governing body. It's almost like you would have to have that within that group because they would never fall under any jurisdiction, right? That's, that's what I kind of keep coming back to. And before we go on any further, I did not put this in the outline that I said in advance. So if we're, if we're scratching at answers, that's kind of, that's kind of why it just struck me when we were talking about it, that this would be a potential, uh, a potential issue, but that shouldn't, that shouldn't prevent us from kicking it around a little bit. So that, that's what I would think is that you would have to have some sort of internal control, which is incredibly difficult. I cannot tell you how hard that is incredibly difficult to orchestrate. That would cost the most money right there. Now that I'm thinking about it, just that. I mean, in a way it's the same issue for all the groups that are there already.

And, uh, I mean, I'm not sure, I'm not aware of any of them that are doing that. So, uh, it's full. And I'm not sure why there are certain groups that got better reputations than others. And that's built on the fact that they haven't had dopers within their group or, or anyone caught, at least, uh, there's the integrity of the, the coach, the manager, those kinds of things are known within Kenya, but outside of Kenya, obviously not every, not most people don't know about this. So yeah, I think you'd need to kind of build some, particularly in ultra running, like you say, without the testing at most races, the idea would jump to people's minds pretty quickly. Well, wait a minute. These Kenyans are winning, but they're training in Kenya, no testing. What's to say they're not, you know, just, you know, all on EPO. You'd have to find a way of making that being as crystal clear as you could, you know, being as kind of clean as you could.

Well, I'm thinking of it from the standpoint of whoever's, you know, whatever funding kind of comes in, they want the assurances to protect themselves against that criticism. Yeah. Cause that's a natural, that would be a natural kind of piece of criticism. If, if this is a big if statement, this group comes in and dominates, right. Which is part of the speculation. That's why we're having this conversation right now. That could actually happen. The other thing on that is, is you're not, you're not going to get the best runners joining this group. Sure. Cause the culture is still very much marathon. The prize money is still in marathon money. I mean, you win the, you win the London marathon in a fast time, you can take over half a million dollars home that day. You know, in Kenya, that goes a long way. Uh, in there's no ultra run that's ever going to offer that potential.

And, uh, the Kenyans are very confident in their own abilities. So I'd say half the Kenyans out there running probably think they can win the London marathon given the chance, you know, and probably take that half a million dollars home. So when you're offering them, you know, you're, you're going to have guys either. So this guy, Francis had run a 208, but he was, he was 42. Uh, so he was definitely a few years past his best. Uh, and that would be a gradual process as well. You, you know, you need to kind of really work hard to find talented athletes who were young enough and willing enough, like I say, to go further for less money. So you're not, basically you're not going to be getting, Ellie Kipchoge is not going to be knocking on your door to, uh, to join this ultra running team. So if anybody's holding out hope, that's not going to happen. You know, if you've got that caliber athlete, then maybe you'd come over and you'd dominate 50 mile races, but I think you're going to have athletes at least initially or not, and not necessarily, I couldn't see instant domination personally. Yeah. I still, I still think that the, that whole scenario is, is, is reasonable. And just to like paint the picture, we use this, we use this analogy of the Kenyan cycling team that, that, uh, that, that started up. Um, I just looked it up. I just looked it up really quick. So they were initially preparing for the 2020 Olympics as part of their whole run-up. They have a budget of like 5 million bucks

and the running one does not need, need to be nearly as comprehensive of that. Cycling teams are really expensive, really, really, really expensive. But my point with that is, is the scale, the, the, the scale that you need on the economic side of things is not that far-fetched that it could like, it's prohibitive from that standpoint that you could put together a four or five year program for, you know, half a million bucks a year, a million bucks a year. And that could be something that could actually, that could actually make a big impact. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's interesting. The more we talk about it, the more I think, let's do it. All right. Well, well, like I said, we'll put all of your contact information, the show notes, anybody wants to send, send you a pitch deck. They're more than welcome to, I don't want you can, you can better and better the more we discuss. Yeah. Bring me on as a consultant. I don't know how much, how close I want to get to this quite yet. So we'll see. You can come out and do some, uh, you know, lectures, coaching lectures. We'll see. We'll see. I'm happy. Like I said, just like with the original project, I'm happy to help in any way I can, given that it's kind of orchestrated correctly, you know? Um, okay. Let's, let's pivot a little bit. You okay with that?

We've gone through enough thorny issues. We could always say, you know, 20 years time, when it all began with a conversation on Jason. Yeah. Hopefully this will contribute to higher society in some form or fashion. That might be it. Um, I was speaking of podcasts. I want to pivot to your podcast, which is really good by the way. And it's something that you just recently started. Yeah. So for everybody that's not familiar with it, tell everybody about just what it's about, what guests you're bringing on, things like that. Yeah. So it's called the way of the runner, uh, and then conversations on running with the Darren and Finn. That's me. Uh, and I guess I didn't really have a, like a unique selling point apart from the fact that I feel like I have a certain way of thinking about running and writing about running and, and kind of approaching running, which is just, you know, everybody has their own unique way. And I have a way that people seem to resonate with. And so I'm very interested in the experience of running itself, like what it feels like to run and what it feels like to be in the midst of a run, a race or a training run or a period of running. So I kind of, I always feel like I'm, I'm, I'm inching towards this kind of a moment in each podcast where I kind of asked the really pertinent, deep question, but you can't just come out with that. Cause people will be like, well, what do you mean? What are you talking about?

So we kind of, we kind of gradually get there through, through some lovely conversations and stories. I also love storytelling. I feel like, you know, I feel like my books are a series of stories and I, and I do a lot of talks and, and I really realized that if you want to engage an audience, you've got to tell stories. So I, I kind of pick people. I, I met so far, they're all people I'd spoken to in the past, had amazing conversations with. They told me great stories. They had a great feeling for that, that sense of what running was. Uh, and, and so, uh, yeah, so, so we had this kind of very close conversation. They were like, uh, it was like the conversations I was having, uh, researching my books, but then sometimes just one or two lines of that would come out in the book. And, but I think like I had these, you know, these 10 pages of notes where it's all great stuff and it'd be like, shame, you know, that no one else could sit in and listen to that conversation because that was really amazing to talk to that person.

Uh, and so I, I had, uh, I've had five guests on and also it's not just ultra running. So it's the whole spectrum of running in, in, in my idea. And also the other thought I wanted to do initially before the lockdown happened was to do them face to face, like in the same room. Cause I felt like if I wanted to get that intimacy and that connection and where we could really go to a deep place, I felt like it worked better if we were in the room together. But then what happened is lockdown happened. I thought, well, I can't just stop doing my podcast. And, and, but then I suddenly opened up the whole world because up until that point, it'd been three British, uh, people. Uh, so then suddenly I had, I had more options. So, so I'll go through them very quickly. The first one is, is probably unknown to us audience, but he's, uh, he's the world six time world snooker champion. So I don't even know Americans play snooker. You might have to describe that sport before you go any further.

Yeah. Snooker is like pool. Do you play pool? I play pool. Yeah. I'm not very good at it, but I play pool. But the table's like 10 times bigger. And, uh, and this guy, Ronnie O'Sullivan, actually, he, he was asked, what's the difference between snooker and pool? And he said, well, snooker's like, you know, the Augusta, you know, well, I'm not into golf, but like, what's the big golf thing in Augusta? The Masters. The U S open, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he said, pool's like crazy golf. So to him, snooker's like, you know, and it, and for some reason, Americans don't, don't play it, but it is quite big in lots of parts of the world. The Chinese are very into it. Anyways, the English are very into it. And, uh, and he's the world champion, six times world champion. He's also a real maverick character. He, he, uh, he's just, he's really outspoken. He's really interesting. He's like a big star. I actually, and he, and he loves running as well. I was at the world athletics championships and, uh, we had, uh, Colin Jackson.

I don't know if you remember Colin Jackson. He was the world record holder in 110 meter hurdles. I was with Ronnie O'Sullivan, this, this guy, and he comes over and asks for Ronnie O'Sullivan's autograph. So Ronnie O'Sullivan's like a big star in, in the world. In the UK. Uh, and so he, anyway, but then he's a really keen runner. I mean, just an amateur runner, but he can do a 10 K in 34 minutes, which snooker is one of these sports, which you don't associate with healthy lifestyle. A lot of them smoke, drink beer. And so he's out there running cross country for his, uh, running club. He's earning like county championships and, and, and winning races like local races, small races, but so he's a fascinating character. So I talked to him. Then I, I'm, I'm, I didn't mean to go on so much with each person. I'll try to talk about it.

Oh, cool. I want to listen to that one now. I haven't yet. Oh, he's brilliant. And he's got such a great, he's from East London or from Essex. He's just, as everything about him is totally charming and totally wonderful. Uh, then I interviewed Chrissy Wellington. Now anyone who knows anything about triathlon will know Chrissy Wellington, four time world Ironman champion. And, uh, what's so bizarre about her, she didn't take up triathlon even until she was 29. She'd been off. She'd been a lawyer. She'd been off traveling or doing charity work in Nepal. Hadn't done any competitive sport at all. And then just started doing some amateur triathlons, started winning them. Someone said, Oh, you should try the Ironman. So she went to Kona and she did, she did an Ironman somewhere else and she won it. And so she got the spot at Kona, but she was unheard of. It was a very obscure, tiny Ironman turns up in Kona and wins.

And then, and then basically a whole career, she never lost an Ironman. She won every Ironman she ever competed in, but she, she's again, a very complex character. She had a very troubled relationship with her coach. She, uh, she had, yeah, she's a very lovely, warm person, but with, uh, with kind of issues around pleasing people and being what, what was driving her to success was, was very interesting. It wasn't necessarily super healthy. Uh, then I get into the ultra runners. So then I had, uh, Beth Pascal, who's a, is a lovely, un, un, really understated, uh, woman. But, but when you get talking to her, she's, she does open up, but she just broke the Bob Graham round record in the UK is a iconic round. And actually she is, this is a, I mean, for those who don't know it, this is the kind of the heart of mountain running in the UK. These guys are tough, you know, they're there. They live and breathe this stuff and they, they run it from as children and they grow up running it and they run their whole lives. And, and a lot of them like sheep farmers and they're super fit. And this round has, was started almost 90 years ago. And I'd say all of these top tough hill farming, uh, fowl runners as they're called have at some point given it their best shot.

And in those, uh, 90 years, Beth Pascal, we call it the four fastest time of men and women, which is quite stunning, I think. And, and Killian Jornet turned up last year, I think, and, uh, broke a record that had been there since the 1976. There are a lot of us runners that are really interested in that route too. Like I hear more and more about it from the people that I coach and then just kind of being around the scene. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a, it's a stunning part of the world and it's, yeah, I think the number of people who've gone there and tried it and realized how tough it is. Yeah. You know, it, and that was what was so amazing about Killian because there was this idea that even if Killian comes, he doesn't stand a chance. He doesn't know the terrain. He doesn't know the rear. He doesn't know what he's doing. You know, like he thinks, you know, he's good in those, you know, Alps races or up in Norway, but take him to the, you know, the fell runners. And, and of course he just, he beat the record by an hour. How many times has somebody said that about Killian?

Because it's XYZ, he's not going to be able to do whatever. And he ends up doing it anyway. I know he doesn't stop. There's that brilliant film about the race in Alaska, Mount Marathon. Yes. And he turns up there and they were like, Oh, we're built different up here. He won't, he won't be able to deal with this. And of course breaks the record. Yeah, exactly. So anyways, Beth, Beth broke the record there. She's, she's had some great results. Top five at Western States, top five at UTMB. Uh, and then, then I had, well, Zach Miller. So needs no introduction over there. So that was, that was great to talk to him. Have you been watching Zach's van build? Yes. It's not quite slowly. We're actually getting there.

For the listeners out there, Zach bought, it's like an old, it's like a really small school bus almost, it looks like. And he's converting it into something. He'd be determined something that he's going to live and kind of travel in. And, uh, it is happening very, I wouldn't say slowly. I would say deliberately. Yeah. Yeah. In typical Zach Miller style. It's like life, life has lived at a different pace. I love, I love when I asked him about the restrictions, the coronavirus restrictions and how it was affecting him. It was like, well, I don't really kind of have that lifestyle where I see a lot of people. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I'm just in the mountains. You look, you learn this from having visited Zach. I mean, when he was at bar camp, he worked for a living. Like there are very few people that work for a living anymore, like actually have to like do physical manual labor. Like what he was doing at bar camp, I think is kind of underappreciated by a lot of people in terms of like how hard those caretakers actually have to work on a day-to-day basis.

Yeah. And he was training it on top of that. I know, right. And trying to trade. Anyway, I derailed you. Zach is the next one. Go listen to the Zach one. It's typical Zach. The next one is an interesting guy. Abdi Nagay, he's called. He's a Dutch marathon runner, but he's originally from Somalia. And just to very briefly summarize his life story, he twice, twice escaped civil war in Somalia before he was 15. He'd been sent to, he'd been lived in the Netherlands for quite a long time. He'd also been sent to a madras, an Islamic school in Syria for three years. And then he discovered running when he was about 19, he was like almost professional football player, soccer players, we call it. And he, you know, at junior level. And then he just in the summer, they don't off season, he did a 5k just because he had this board and he had nothing to do.

And he ran like 17 minutes or something. And so then his friends were like, you're really good. You should do this other race and you should train for it this time. So he trained for it. He went to this race in one of the cities in the Netherlands. And he was like, Oh, look, all these guys look a bit like me, you know, and everyone thought he was one of the Kenyans in the Ethiopian. And he came like just behind them. He kind of ran off with them and he did something like 29 minutes or something. And he's, and so suddenly he was running for the Netherlands within, and he was like, Oh, I was trying to be a soccer player. I never got to national level. And within like three weeks in running, I'm suddenly running for Netherlands. What's going on? And they all asked when he won his first race, they said, what club, what, what, what club do you run for? And he didn't know what they meant.

So he said his football club, his soccer club. No, no, that's not a running club. He's like, well, that's, that's my team. Anyway, so he now trains, uh, with the same group as Elliot Kipchoge and Jeffrey Kammerwar, uh, in, in Kenya. He lives there now. So he basically, he says he first went out there and he's running around and he's on a six week training camp to kind of get ready for the Olympics. And he's asking about the other Kenyan guys. He's like, he's, he's asking, he's going like, how long are these, all these Kenyans here for? And they're like, well, they live here the whole year. I'm coming for six weeks to like live like this. And I'm trying to beat these guys. So he just moved out there. And, um, yeah, he's, well, he came, I think he came ninth or 10th in Rio in the Olympics. He's run two Oh six. So he's again, I, you know, there's a lot of people you could talk to in Kenya would have, would have those kinds of credentials, but not many who can tell a story like Abdi. He's, you know, he can really weave a tale. So he's, he's great value to listen to. I mean, we, most of the podcasts we had to divide into two podcasts because they, they were just so interesting. So, yeah. So there you go. My new project. You've got a really good, you've got a really good lineup and I kind of want to know like ancillary to that. Maybe this is just for my own brainstorming purposes, but what does your whiteboard look like of guests that you're trying to reach out to versus how do you like tailor it down to the one that you're

going to contact next? Yeah. I mean, so far they've been people I have been in contact with. Uh, and obviously that that's dwindling the people who I think would make a really good interview. Uh, then I also, like I said, I began with, uh, just UK runners. Cause I thought I would meet them. And then I thought, imagine I'd go out to Kenya. So what, and maybe do a few out there. So just while I was there, not just for the podcast, but so one guy I'd really love to get on is a brother, Colm O'Connell, the Irish coach who lives out in Kenya. He, he is such a great storyteller. I mean, he, you know, you feel like you've been in the presence, you feel like you're in the presence of a wise person. When he talks, we sit, we sit around, I know him quite well. And whenever I have a group out in Kenya, we sit around by the fire and I just ask him one question, like, you know, so, you know, tell us about the role of, you know, well, he's, he's the St.

Patrick's school is where he first started coaching. Tell us the role of St. Patrick's in Kenya running. And for two hours, he'll talk and it's just gold, all of it. So, so he'd be great. You know, I, I, a lot of my, a lot of my people, I want to talk to ultra runners for some reason, I guess that's my most recent thing. And I think there's a lot of good stories in ultra running. So I'm trying to not, I'm trying to think, well, who can I talk to? Who's not an ultra runner? Because there's a guy, Damien Hall, who I know very well in the UK. There's Rob Evans, Tom Evans, sorry. Tom Evans is really interesting because he's been running like some really fast 5Ks and he actually ran European cross country championships. He ran for Great Britain at the cross country. So, yeah. And then he's, and then he's winning, well, he's coming second in Western States almost within a year of running. I think he ran 13. I don't get the wrong time, but 13 something for a 5K the other night. So he's interesting. He's got a good, good backstory as well. And he's a good dude too. He's a good, good guy, total professional athlete, like treats it as a, as a vocation or profession. Really, really good guy. Yeah. He's got a, he's got a very professional attitude, not just his training, but to his whole career, actually. He's got a, he's, he's, I don't know if you guys know, and say he was one of the biggest sporting stars in the UK is David Beckham, right? The soccer player. So he's same agent as Tom Evans.

So, I mean, you know, they, they, he, and this guy just loves ultra running weirdly. He's like a football agent usually, but he, he loves ultra running and he got Tom and he's like, this guy's young. He's good looking. We're going to turn him into a superstar. So he's like, he's planning his races. And so that, yeah, he's interesting from, from lots of points of view. Someone who's always a brilliant interview is Camille Heron. She's, she doesn't hold back with her stories. That is true. So, so yeah, but also I just like, oh, that's more ultra runners. I want to go and I want, I want diversity and on different people from different walks of life. So one, one guy I really wanted to use Steve Cram, who was my, my personally, my childhood hero, you know, and he's still being the commentating and world record holder at the mile and stuff. So, you know, not just, you know, from one extreme to the other and we'll see where we go with it, but it's, it's kind of fun to have that whiteboard and think who could I talk to?

I mean, Mo Farah would be great, but I don't think I can get it. He's very protective. Well, keep doing it. You've got a good lineup so far. You've got a great way of telling those stories, both in your books and then also in an audio format. And I honestly think it's a treasure. It's fun. So keep doing it, man. I know it's hard with COVID and not being able to sit down face to face. I've gone through the same, I've gone through the same thing, but trust me, the listeners will adapt. People are used to video conferences now, you know, it's, yeah, it's not the best audio quality. And sometimes you end up talking over each other and there's some sort of delay. Like those are all like perfectionist things that you get worried about. People are forgiving as long as it's a good story and a good character and you bring the best out of that character, which you do. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think cause the last two were both done like that and I don't think, I don't think we lost anything. So yeah, I agree. Awesome, man.

All right. We're going to let you go. That was really fun. I hope that we get, I hope that we gave some people some fuel and ammunition to get some of these projects off the ground. So I'm hashtag, sorry, not sorry. If I just put a whole lot more work on your plates because of that. But Hey, maybe we'll get it done some point in our lifetimes and it will be a cool thing. And yeah, we can come back and say, you see, it was all because we did that one podcast that one time. Yeah. I just have the vision of that, that UTMB start line, which is always so epic. And there's the Kenyan guy with a little bag on and he's ready to roll. He's like, he's not necessarily going to win, but he's going to be in the mix. Awesome. Make it happen, man. We'll make it happen. All right. Appreciate your time, man. Thank you, Jason. Thank you. And there you have it. There you go. Much thanks to Ad Darahan for coming on the podcast today and bigger. Thanks for putting up with my complete lack of correct pronunciation with your name. I'm sure you get it a lot. Everybody should go and check out the three books that I mentioned at the onset of this podcast. They're absolutely fantastic. The links to those are in the show notes and also Ad Darahan's podcast. It is amazing as well. Go check it out. The links are in the show notes.

Appreciate the heck out of everybody listening today, and we will see you out on the trails. Bye.