The Future of Ultrarunning with Candice Burt and Jason Green | Koopcast Episode 151

Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of the KoopCast. I am Andy Jones-Wilkins, sitting in for Jason Koop, who is away for a couple of months on a project. And it's my pleasure today to talk about the future of ultra running with two people who really need no introduction. Candice Burt and Jason Green have been involved in ultra running, both as participants and as race organizers for over a decade each. They bring incredible experience, expertise, style, and magnetic charisma to the sport.

And I value them as members of the community and also value their participation in this podcast. So Candice and Jason, welcome. Thank you so much. Well, it's great to have you here. And before we get into looking ahead to the future, I'd love to turn back the clock. And because all of both of you came into the sport as participants and then found yourself as leaders of organizations. And I'd love to hear a little bit basically of your life story of how you came into the sport and then how you came into your current role. And we'll start with Candice. Ladies first.

Thanks, Andy. I got into the sport in 2010. It was right around the born to run thing. You know, when everybody was getting into barefoot running and I had read the book, I had two little children, two daughters who were, let's see, five and two. And I just thought for sure there was no way I was going to be able to even train for a marathon with these two little toddlers in the house. And then I read born to run. And I thought, well, if people can run 100 mile races, I should be able to train for a marathon. So at that point, I just started training for a road marathon, ran into some folks who were doing ultras.

And I thought, well, that sounds interesting. I thought, well, I was going to be able to train for a marathon. I thought, well, I was going to be able to train for a marathon. I was going to be able to train for a marathon. It was all short distance races. So like 10K, 20K, weird, weird kind of, you know, distances at the time. But I thought it would be fun to have like racing fast style distances.

So and they were easier to organize at the time. And then I just kind of, you know, it was the ultra mentality of I had this route that I really wanted to organize around Lake Tahoe. And there wasn't any good reason why I should be able to put on this 200 miler, right? But I had this route. It circumnavigated Lake Tahoe. It was 200 miles. And I thought, oh, what the heck? I'm going to put on a 200 miler. Next thing you know, I had to figure out how to put on a 200 miler because I had entrance in an event. And so I just studied what other race directors had done. And that was the start of me really getting into race directing full time. As soon as I put on that Tahoe 200, I realized like, okay, this is what I'm here for.

This is the distance I want. And we built a whole community around those kind of ultra, ultra distances. That's been so much fun. It's what my life is completely about nowadays. Yeah. And why not? Why just have one when you could have like four or five or who knows what you're going to end up having? But yes, I think it's safe to say, Candice, that you are the queen of 200 milers. And it's a status you definitely have earned. And we're going to dig a little bit more into the world of 200 milers a little bit later on. Jason Green, how about you? Give me a little bit of your trajectory to where you are today.

So just like Candice, I ran cross country and loved it and was in the booze business and traveled the world picking up beer brands and had stopped running for quite some time. And I had like a checkup at my physician's office. And I happened to look down in a magazine and read this article about someone running 50 miles. And I by the time I walk back for my appointment, something inside of me sparked. And I remember looking at the doctor asking him, is it possible for me to run 50 miles? And he's like, I think that would take a really long time to train and do for.

And a year later, I drove to Mississippi and ran a 50 miler. And so I was hooked. And, you know, I exclusively ran on trails. I lived on a state park and had access, you know, not to have to drive to a trailhead made everything so much easier for training. And I remember between there and the 50, you know, I ran a 50 K. And I remember this. I felt like ultra running really woke something up inside of me. And when I finished this 50 K that I'd signed up as a training run for the 50, it was a horrible experience.

And no one was at the finish line. They were all congratulating the winners. Right. And I was like, how disappointing, you know, because I'm from like a skateboard culture where everyone is valued and, you know, everyone is somebody. Right. And I was like, how can something that speaks to my soul so much suck so bad? Right. Like, how can the people suck so bad? Yeah. So I, like I said, lived on trails. I opened up my garage, invited people that I started meeting over. It just snowballed. And I actually found out that most of ultra running is like myself. And we value community and each other.

And it was welcoming. So, you know, those races I just said aren't around anymore. So, you know, and I think that was the intro to all of this. And, you know, as, you know, trying to carry the flag for ultra running. Well, for in the case of both of you, there's something very inspirational. I think anytime you can meet people that turn their passion into their profession. And the two of you are like prime examples of it. And you've taken something that you love and made it into something that you can share that love with literally thousands of people in beautiful places with a lot of hard work on your part.

It doesn't come, you know, just snap your fingers and organize the Tahoe 200 or the Yeti 100. You know, there's a lot of grinding that goes in that no one sees and no one understands. And yet, you know, having seen both of you either in real life or on video congratulate every finisher of your races from the first to the last, which in Candice's case stretches over almost a week. You know, that's pretty incredible. You know, and Jason, having been to the Yeti a couple of times, I mean, every single person who crosses that finish line receives that bear hug. And that in and of itself is probably worth more than the buckle.

I know it was when I finished. The buckle was great, but the hug was even better. So, so shifting into the little bit more into the present, we've our sport and and you and I and and many of us who've been part of, you know, building the community has had it's been a little bit of a slog since 2020 when when COVID hit. And I know both of your organizations did did what you could to put events on. I think even the two of you did a East West Challenge virtual event, didn't you? Or the Yeti and the Destination Trail East West Challenge. That was awesome. It was just a kind of a clever idea when we're all just sitting in lockdown.

I thought that was pretty cool. But but now we're trying to emerge out of it. And I'm curious as you look at, you know, both of you, you know, in addition to passionate, you know, ultra athletes yourselves and, you know, you're you're you're good business people. I mean, obviously, you're really good business people. And it's been tough to be a business person over these last couple of years. So shifting a little bit to that business side, Candice, first, how has it been kind of coming out of of the initial, you know, huge lockdowns of of the pandemic? And as you look ahead, I mean, maybe to 2023 and your triple crown races or, you know, even your less than 200 mile races up in the Pacific Northwest that are that are earlier in the year. How are you preparing, you know, to bring to continue to bring the company back? Well, I think that most event businesses got hit pretty hard, if not all during COVID.

And so there's been a recovery period and also runners in our events, you know, they they lost some motivation, I think, to go to in-person events and and some trust even in the organizations, because even though, you know, they understood that it wasn't our fault as race organizers to have to cancel so many events. It, it, it still hurt them and, you know, financially and, in terms of the kind of things that they actually wanted to do. So I think what we're seeing is, overall, I've talked to a lot of different organizers, and even in our in my own events, we're still selling out, but numbers are are lower.

And they're starting to, I think they're going to start to pick up over the next couple years again. But we did see kind of a downturn in in terms of the numbers of runners. And we also part of that for me is like some of my shorter distance events. We just couldn't even open them, even last year until a few months before the event itself. So we, we just have gotten so far behind and out of practice, even. And I know for me, and I'm curious for Jason to what he has to say about this, but I lost some really key employees, I think the stress of having to deal with the cancellations, and then people being upset. And we just felt like we let a lot of people down, and we were still doing the best we could.

And, and some of those employees maybe didn't make as much money as they would have had our business continue to increase the way it was pre COVID. So hopefully, it'll be a recovery period in the next few years. Yeah, I've, I've seen, I've seen both with for profit and nonprofit race organizations really being challenged with volunteers to like just having that one year hiatus, that one year hiatus almost gave the volunteers permission to like bail on the race. You know, I think of my, my friend Clark, who runs Grindstone down in Virginia. I mean, he really was struggling for volunteers this year. So I, I do think, I do think it's, it's a recovery, but it's a slow recovery. Another interesting note, have you guys noticed this? We're going much deeper into wait lists.

Those races that have wait lists, we're getting people dropping out, even as, as late as a couple weeks before the race, whether it's for travel or illness or what have you. I think that's an interesting trend we're seeing. Jason, how about you? I mean, I will say you were one of the first, you were able to stage Yeti in 2020 in September, in the pouring rain on a, on a, on a, on a modified course. Yeah, I was there. I was there. I'm still chafed from it two and a half years later, but you, you, you modified the course, right? So you could control the aid station stuff. But, but I mean, people were psyched to be out there, even though it did pour rain for 14 hours. How has, how has the Yeti recovery been, you know, from, from 2020 to now? I have to tell you, that was the worst time, like going into unknown, right?

Like what regulation? It was, it was just horrific, right? And it's, it's been a challenge, just like Candace said. Like, I finally are seeing people that kind of stopped running, that were a big part of the community during the pandemic. Like, I'm finally seeing all of those folks come back to the community, right? They found their purpose again, right? I mean, Jesus, the pandemic and this, this lockdown and this financial just crushing blow that was happening during COVID. COVID, you know, just left a lot of us who, you know, like depressed and, and, you know, and I think now a lot of folks in our ultra community are coming out of that coming.

And we, thank goodness, I've, you know, been built a pretty good network of community and, and, and support for those. And it's, we've had good luck about having people come out and volunteer and say, thank you for supporting me, you know, during COVID. So, but I will say, you know, running the numbers, we, I think in the next year or two, you'll see a lot of those folks that quit running, right? And the pandemic are starting to filter back, right? And we'll build the community much stronger than it was. And I've been lucky. Our numbers still stay strong. The, we first raced in January, we sold out in about 40 minutes. So, but, and AJW, I will also say there is a lot of these wait lists getting deep because towards the end, things are popping up now, right?

People had to return to work. People's kids have violin recitals, right? So, you know, sign up for the wait list. You'll probably get in these days. You know, like, I think a lot of folks are, you know, as life gets back to normal are wanting to return to the community. Well, as an observer of both of your organizations and you and the two of you in particular, I was, I've been very impressed. You know, you often say, you know, a person, you best judge a person in how they manage through a crisis, right? When we talk about Abraham Lincoln as perhaps the greatest president, it was because of the way he managed crises. And the two of you were able and are still are able to kind of manage the crisis with maintaining your positive attitude that you're both known for, your, you know, your attention to detail, your organization, and kind of just a can-do attitude.

We're going to do this. And I think there's something about the ultra community that that's an example for, that we want that. I think what the initial, you know, when we all had to be separated and stay in our homes, and we realized pretty quickly that human beings need human in-person interaction. I mean, I'm an educator and I saw it with kids where, you know, it's not the same, you know, doing class over Zoom or on the phone, or it's not the same visiting your grandmother, you know, over Zoom. And I think for many people, what I didn't realize before the pandemic that I do realize now is that many people have come to our sport precisely because of the social connections that we engender, whether they're sitting around at the pre-race conversations or, you know, licking our wounds at an aid station or hanging out at a post-race around the fire.

And, you know, those are things that until we lost them, we probably took them for granted. Whereas right now, you know, I think I would argue that probably some of the reason that your events continue to thrive is because that's always been your focus. You know, the community. Candice, for example, with the 200s, I've spoke extensively with our mutual friend Don Freeman about running 200s. And a phenomenon that he's talked about in those events is that, you know, they're so long and there's so much suffering that – and while there is some level of competitiveness in them, there's also this sort of shared camaraderie where you literally get groups of two and three and four – well, groups will just group up and group up for hours and hours and run together and wait in aid stations for one another.

And by the end of it, they know their kids' birthdays and, you know, they're planning to get together for the holidays and so forth. I have to ask because Don wondered this as well. Is that like part of your master plan or is that something that just happens in the course of an event that long? I think it's both really because when I first started doing hundreds, I ran – so, I ran the Zion 100 and I did not have a pacer or anything, but I ended up grouping together with these guys and we had the best time. We ended up, you know, kind of making friends for life. We check in with each other about how we're doing.

And one of the guys was going to drop at mile 50 and we had all gotten off course. And we were like, no, come on with us. You know, it'll be fun. And he just joined us and was like, okay, and ran another 50 miles. So, it's like when you have that motivation of people around you keeping you company and being kind of a team like that, it can get you through many, many miles. I mean, we've all done it, right? You start talking to somebody and you're like, whoa, 10 miles have gone by. So, in a 200, I think that's pretty important. And I tell people who – there's a lot of people who come in with no pacers, no crew. And I say, that's great because you're going to meet a whole new set of friends and be able to, you know, run with them.

And part of it, the fun of that too in 200s is, you know, you're going through a lot of nights. And most people aren't going to want to do that completely by themselves. So, it's a pretty cool feature, I think, in anything really 100 plus. Yeah. And it seems as though it's something – the neat part about it is it's not pre-planned. You know, it's not like the three – it's not like a team event, right, where the three people have to stay together or something. It just evolves organically, which is something – I think that's a special gift that that kind of a thing does. You've been out there 60 hours. It's like, oh, man, I'm just going to stick with you, man. If you sit down, I'll sit down. If you take a – I'll take a dirt nap. Jason, while you're not – well, you don't do any 200s. For some reason – No.

But I will say that, you know, one of my first races back from the pandemic was Candace's Bigfoot 43, right? And while the world seemed to be chasing FKTs, I really wanted to be with people and have an adventure, right? And this is what I always tell people. Like, that Bigfoot 43 is the perfect race. You get to run the Lewis Trail, meet a bunch of people, and have the best food at the end. And it was awesome to be – fill that again. And so, you know, to fill a venture with friends, right, like, is always fun. And to make a finish line. And I think, Jason, you've got a 200 – is it this year?

The Your Organizing. Yes. Yes. So we're only allowing a few people, and it's just like an intro to 200s. You know, it's not a – it's just to see if you may like it. Is it going to start and finish at your garage? Well, it does run the original course. The original course. So, yeah. You know, I think as we explore, one of the things I've done with Yetis is always, you know, it's hard to come into ultra running and suddenly, you know, sign up for, say, the Wasatch, right? Like, you need these moments, right? And to figure it out.

So I, you know, put on some 50-milers that are awesome where you can come and enjoy it. And this is one of the reasons I've always run, like, American River 50 because you get to go test stuff out during a 50-miler, right? So, Jason, I got a – one of the things that – when I was a kid, when I was in college, my dad said, you know, Andy, you just got to find the professors you like and then sign up for their classes no matter what the classes are. It strikes me that you're a race director like that. Like, people don't care. People don't care. They don't care where the race is, how long it is, what the weather is going to be like. It's like, oh, Jason Green is running that race. He's a race director. I'm going to sign up for it.

I mean, how do you do that? Well, this is a very – like, people ask me this question a lot. And when I was 13, I put on a legal skateboard contest behind a Chevron in Bristol, Virginia, right? Didn't ask the guy permission. I just put it on. And I'd written myself these rules for the skateboard contest like this kind of diagram. And I still remember handing it to my mom. And she handed it back to me. She's like, this is all awesome, but you're just going to get 13-year-old boys at your place. You know? So she made me, like, rewrite it. So I have it in a frame. And I still value – those rules are still applied to every race that I put on. I love it.

I love it. You know? So that's how – just have fun, be community. And maybe the person who wins the race doesn't really win the race, right? Like, I remember the skateboard contest. It was the person who learned to drop in that day that won, right? So maybe it's the person in our community that has struggled the most to get there, to the starting line, and finishes. That's who we celebrate at my races. Candice does a great job at celebrating people at her race. And I think that's what we need to keep the ultra community that vibe, right? All of us together. Well, I know that both of you, we've – over the years, maybe on Twitter or something, with both of us, both of you and me, we've had sort of side conversations about things like ultra runner of the year and a lot of these things.

And I think both of you are more inclined towards the – I'm more interested in the most inspirational person of the year. Or like Tom Green coming to Yeti, you know, and finishing, you know. You know, I think you seem to be – and I have – unfortunately, my role in the sport, I kind of have to straddle both of those things. But you – the two of you are like unabashedly like we're about the community. We could care less who gets ultra runner of the year. Well, it's true that – I think Jason and I really do share a value that from first to last, everybody's kind of equal to us in terms of, you know, the importance.

So, like, at the 200s, the last person gets a human arch formed for them and really gets, like, a much bigger welcome into the finish line than the first person even. Because we – and in fact, we schedule our award ceremony for an hour before the cutoff so that we have hundreds of people there for when the last people come in. And then as they're coming in, we're just cheering. Like, it's just this roar of – for an ultra marathon, anyway – roar of cheering for these last runners who have been out in some cases, you know, 113 hours. So – and I know Jason is exactly the same way. I always say I am more interested in the story and the grit and, like you said, inspiration than I am about how fast you are.

I mean, fast is cool, but a lot of that has to do with your – kind of the build that you have, you know. Are you built like a runner or not? But I want to see, like, what has somebody gotten through, you know? What have they overcome? That's interesting to me. The loneliest place to be, except if you're at Western States, is to win a race. It's just me and you at 1 a.m. It's very true. I always tell the winner, come back, come back, go home, update your vlog, take a bath, you know, come back. You guys are reminding me of something. It's worth noting because I think you're cut from this cloth. John Groban, who's been the race director of Wasatch, the only race director Wasatch has ever had.

He's famous for a couple of things. One is that he has a 10-minute pre-race briefing. It lasts 10 minutes. He demands that it's in person. And at about the eight-minute mark, he says, oh, and one more thing. We know that there are probably a lot of famous runners out there that are running this race. We're not going to introduce any of you. It's like the total opposite of, you know, calling the top 10 up and all of that stuff that, you know, the big fancy races do. So, I mean, I do think as you, you know, those things that you do, though, celebrating with the human art, you know, intentionally creating the award ceremony for an hour before the final finisher so that you are guaranteed to have people there.

You know, Jason knowing that Tom Green is two miles out and kind of gathering the people at the Yeti and at the other events. I mean, that does nurture community and it does, by the way, give you repeat customers. And I know, I know for a fact that your two organizations benefit quite a bit from repeat customers, right? I mean, whether it's in a 200 or whether it's in some of these crazy nighttime runs that Jason does. I mean, people come back year after year after year and not only does that make good business sense because you've got, it's easier to keep a current customer than find a new one, but it also makes really good community sense because you've got these people that you know about.

It's a family reunion every year. Absolutely. I think people should value experience, right? Over, over things, you know, and I, this is why the other day someone's like, oh, we're going into this economic downturn. And I was like, you know, people won't buy cars, but they still will value experiences. Right. And, you know, yeah. Should I, I need a new car, but I want to go to UTMB and run. Yeah, I mean, that's the stuff you remember, right? Yes. You remember the experiences, but do you remember, you know, having the newest car? Not really. And in fact, that's one of those things that doesn't really give you true satisfaction in the long run.

Well, and creating, and creating memories is not something, you can't just push a button and create a memory either, right? It's something that evolves and something that, in many cases, happens almost spontaneously. This is true. This is true. So, so it's, I'd like to transition a little bit. We've got, we've got, we've got an understanding of where, where you came from, where, how you, how you managed the, a couple of challenging years. You're, you're unabashed and I think quite, quite proud of, of your emphasis on community. Where, in, in, in the next few minutes, let's look ahead. Let's look into the, Chris, you mentioned Candace, Born to Run, 2010.

That was a, that was a magical year for many reasons. Born to Run was published in 2010. You might remember the Western States race that year, which featured Anton Kupitschka and Jeff Rose and Killian, and then was made into a movie. J.B. Benna made Unbreakable, which came out a year later in 2011. Yeah. If you, if you just chart, you know, participation in ultras, it's, the spike begins, right, in Born to Run and Unbreakable. And a little while later, Hoka's came out and, you know, and then you see this boom in 100 milers popping up all over. You see these lotteries becoming much more crowded and people getting really angry that they can't get into their dream race that they've been trying to get into forever.

But, you know, now we're 12 years into that boom. We're, we're two years kind of into the two and a half years into the pandemic. And we're looking out on the horizon and seeing a lot of different things. I'll just name a few. You're seeing large conglomerates, shoe companies like Hoka, investing tremendous amounts of money in sponsoring races, in sponsoring race series. You see a group like the Ironman group that has not been involved in ultra running before with a developing a partnership with UTMB. You see UTMB changing some of their entry standards for their race.

And this is not intended to be controversial. But some of those entry standards then steer athletes towards other races that are sponsored by UTMB. So it starts to look possibly a little bit like a bit of a monopoly that you might see in, in large road racing or in large road cycling and in UCI races and road cycling and so forth. So we've spent the last half an hour talking about where we've come from, the grassroots, the community celebrating the last finisher as much as the first finisher, if not more. I think we're all in agreement that we want to keep that going. So how do we, as a community, and the three of us on this podcast, whether we like it or not, are voices in the community that people pay attention to.

How do we, as voices in the community, accept the fact that those changes are happening and plan for the future, the future that we want, both for our companies and for our sports, in five years, 10 years? And we're going to flip and start with you, Jason. So I think, you know, as someone who ran a couple of races that got bought by, you know, the big boy, I'm not going to say what they are. And, you know, one was in Switzerland and one was in California. Yeah. Right. And so the savvy listener is quickly going to ultra sign up right now.

I will say that, you know, I wanted to see, you know, what, if they had more to offer, let, you know, I will tell you the filling of the race in Switzerland. And I had done a prior three years earlier was so much different. So like the aid stations felt like paid employees. Right. And whether you like it or not, like you show up at Candace's race, show up at the Yeti race. The volunteers are so deep rooted in the community. And at 100, 50, 100 plus miles, you don't have connections with Jason or Candace. You have them with these key volunteers that helped you finish.

These big races lack all that, that whole vibe and feel. They are just a race, period. Right. And will they get big athletes because there's big chicks? Absolutely. But what is that? 3.5% of the alternating community. People still in alternating will value these small local races and events that are community driven, you know. And we, you know, skateboarding went through this, someone who's been skateboarding their entire life, went through the same kind of drama. And it doesn't really pay out. It's these skater-owned companies, runner-owned companies like Candace and I who just grind and enjoy it.

That will always be there and always be there. And I encourage people to go off and run CCC or something. You should. This is what you should do. It will make you appreciate what you have in your backyard even more. Do you think, do you, I'm sorry to interrupt, Jason, but I want to go down. Do you feel, though, as a, and I'm going to get to Candace's on this in a second, because as a pioneer, as almost a pioneer of the 200 mile distance, it's, you could almost be like, okay, where's that going to be in 10 years? But do you feel, Jason, that you need to do anything different than you did when you first started? Or is it part of it? Is it more just like, I'm just doubling down on doing my community thing? That's it.

Like I said, I still will hold to these list of rules. And this is where I want people. People and ultra running need personal connections, not corporate connections. And they always will value that. Right. A lot of people in our community need the support of each other day to day, you know, and we need to keep that valued. I'm not changing shit. Yeah. Like, I can't tell you that I would not run CCC or something like that. Like, uh, I think the course is amazing, but the vibe is, is kind of horrible these days. Like I said, the California race, um, it just felt, you know, cause you know, the buyouts happening, the RD has to be sucked there for three years or whatever.

It's in the contract going on with them, you know, and they're not the same RD, right? I've run this race and they're not the same. They're just fulfilling a contract buyout. And yeah. Yeah. To me, that's a shame. And as, as someone who doesn't allow sponsors at their races, right? Like, uh, this feels so corporate that it makes me not feel good, you know, and start to lose connection with why you're out there and running. And, um, you know, so I, I don't know. I think there'll be, there's, this is, um, I think people want to run those races and, you know, some, if you get into altering, you have a dream of running UTMB and you need to go to Mexico and run a stone race or, you know, go run Ironman's race.

And, uh, what is speed goat they own now? Right. I think you, you know, you should do it because I, uh, you know, uh, but I don't, I don't know. I think there's, uh, there's always going to be a place for, uh, race directors like Candace, myself and across the country, you know, others. Yeah. Before I get to Candace, I want a story. I want to tell a story on Candace. I know you remember this. So I, I'm, I'm assuming the race, the California race you're talking about, Jason is Western States, which is, uh, it's not. Candace. Western States, as, as you know, as anybody listening to this, anybody, you know, knows me at all.

You know, that's been something that's a, it's a passion of mine. It's a race I love. It, it doesn't, it does have its issues and its problems, but it, it has tried over the years to, to walk the line of being big. And being corporate and also valuing the community. But I remember Candace, I know you're going to remember this. You know, you, it was a few years back as they were trying to manage, um, they were trying to manage their lottery size. Right. They were, they were really, uh, tightening up on their qualification races. And, you know, they have some hundred K races, but they mostly have a hundred milers. And you very assertively kind of sort of stuck your nose into it and said, you know, these 200 mile races are really hard.

They should be qualifiers. Oh yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, it was like a month later and they were qualifiers. So, so I've been around, I've been around Western States long enough to know that change is hard there. They're an old organization. And, you know, sometimes in order to change the rules, it takes like five years. And here's this, here's this plucky race director of all these two hundreds. And she gets her races in there in a month. So I will say something about Western States. Uh, you know, we think of them as this old institution. They truly are on the forefront of transparency, uh, gender, like everything they try to.

I mean, really, they, they really lead pretty well. You know what I mean? A lot of other events look to them to see what's the standard in terms of, you know, what should I do for, for these rules or, you know, whatever it is. So I can't name another race that is as transparent as Western States. Right. And I, I think if that's your, it is an awesome goal. It kept me motivated for years in the lottery. And I still say it's the best race on the damn planet. Yeah. Awesome. So, so, so, so switch to Candace, you know, as a, as a, as a pioneer, especially in the 200 mile distance, but with your, with your company and with your, um, you know, you, you are, you are unapologetic about where your, where your loyalty is in terms of the community and building events around that.

And, and providing, providing a first class experience, right. Which is something you need a first class experience when you're 160 miles into a 200 and you need to sleep for a few hours. Right. And that's, that's a huge high priority. And it means 18 hour work days for you and a lot of your staff. As you look into the, the, the down on the horizon, five years, 10 years, where do you think some of this is going to take you and destination trail? Well, um, I, I think that, um, for me, I'm continuing to try to improve the events I have and maximize the numbers while keeping them small. So, um, we want to be able to add some runners to each of the two hundreds.

Uh, so right now we typically cap around two 50. So we're hoping to increase that a bit. Um, but they'll still be pretty small. Um, we've moved the way of Yeti where we're basically doing no sponsors. We find it's just too much work for a small organization to promote another business while we still need to promote all our different events. So I'm, I'm really with Jason on that. I think what we're going to see is a continued development of really interesting new small events from directors like Jason, myself, Laz, um, you know, with, with all the things that he has kind of created, um, with the timed, um, events. It's really interesting to see. So I think you're going to see a lot of innovation in the next five to 10 years.

Um, we have some ideas like with destination trail, um, but you're going to, on one side, it's the innovation, it's a small events, it's a community. And that's really important. Right. And then on the corporate side, which is also equally important and will bring more people into Jason and my events, these kinds of events when they realize like, oh yeah, we want the community. Um, you know, the Ironmans and the, um, the, the more corporate larger events, they can't put on the races that we can because they need to have 2000 runners. Jason and I have found a business model where we can have an event with 250 runners and we make it work because we do a lot of work ourselves and we have a few key employees maybe, um, or we don't.

We just, we just do it on ourselves. So I think, I, I don't think that, that, uh, Ironman style, competitive style events don't compete with ours really because they wouldn't be allowed to put on events in the places. Uh, that Jason and I put on events. We're limited by numbers, which might mean, you know, people complain sometimes about the price of a 200 miler. But when you look at, um, the number of runners that we can maximize at and the number of staff we have to have for an event, it totally makes sense that, that those are the, um, the price points that we have to do. So, yeah, I think that, I think that we can, um, there's a future where we can kind of balance the two seemingly opposing forces.

It's like Jason and I need the corporations to remind people that they want the communities, but then they can also go out and compete in larger numbers and have that experience. Um, and it can bring in a lot of new runners to our events. So I kind of see it as a, um, opposites help each other situation in the future. You know, two, two hot topics in the sport that probably were not as, as talked about in 2010 when Born to Run came out as they are now. Our environmental responsibility and inclusivity. And I'm meaning inclusivity of, of more different types of people, different types of runners in our events.

So you, both of your companies, of course, have always been at the front end of both of those issues around environmental responsibility and inclusivity. Where do you see that going and what do you think you can do in your worlds to continue to kind of push that? I don't want to call it an agenda because it's more than an agenda. It's like a reality that we need to work on. But to push that reality to perhaps a place where it really belongs on environmental responsibility and inclusivity. Jason? Yeah. You know, with environmental responsibility, I, I think about it a lot. Um, I think as we move forward, like instead of a metal, maybe we give someone that has something of use.

Like it's a, uh, you know, at the end of the day, people are still going to get on airplanes and they're going to live the biggest carbon footprint. Right. But I think in these natural environments, we do what we can to reduce and, and, and little changes like maybe, you know, give them something that can be used as something. Instead of just put in the sock drawer and continue with the cups and work with, you know, recycling and limiting trash down. I mean, I thought this year's a hundred miler. We had 14 bags of waste and I thought that was pretty incredible. Like as far as waste goes for a hundred mile race. So each year we try to look at things and reduce and recycle inclusivity.

I, I, I think having the doors open, always being available to talk and, and providing your message to everyone out there and letting them know that everyone altering is for everybody. And, uh, if you don't believe that you're nobody, you know, like really down on it. Right. I mean, like, and, uh, that's what I want. And, you know, I, uh, going to the trail runners conference and, and listening to the ideas of folks to bring everyone in was just such a great, uh, meeting. And I think the more of us, when we get together, keep great ideas and, and start sharing with what works, uh, we're going to see ultra running continue to grow among everyone. So. Candace.

Yeah. So I'm really open. Other ideas are very open that when it comes to all of these issues. Yeah. Candace, your, your events, especially your big three, two hundreds, and I suspect you're the new one that you're working on in Southern Arizona. I mean, all four of those are in pristine environments, um, with, I'm, I'm sure you, you burn a lot of midnight oil with your permitting agencies. Oh yeah. Yeah. Nurturing, nurturing, let's just say nurturing those relationships if at all possible. Yeah. And it, it never, it never gets easier working with government agencies. I think we all know. How, I mean, you know, you're covering a huge amount of ground over vast, pristine areas through multiple use areas, state parks, national, uh, monuments, uh, national forests, BLM land.

How do you see, you know, the, the role of environmental responsibility in your events and, and at the same time, as well as inclusivity? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's really changed a lot over the years for us. Um, as I put these on, I've realized there's a lot of need for me to educate the runners. And then I learned that I had to educate the crew and the pacers as well to these leave no trace principles. And if anybody listening doesn't know about leave no trace, you should definitely check it out. But as a race organizer, it's essential that we, one, leave the trail exactly as we found it or better. And two, we are sharing that land with all the other users out there, nature and the animals and critters that live on that land.

So my job as a race organizer is to educate the runners, the crew, the pacers, anybody who may come out to that area, the volunteers, the staff, the photographers, as to what they kind of need to do and not do. So I often, you know, in pre-race emails will sound kind of like a jerk because I have to give these people the rules. So we, for each 200 miler, a runner will get about 30 pages of emails and we just go over stuff and we send an email specifically to crew and pacers. And this is new over the last couple of years because I learned that the biggest issues we have are with crew and pacers. So it's incredibly important that that could be as many people as runners out on the trail.

We also teach people how to deal with their waste, human waste. So number one and number two, kind of how to do that on the trail or not do it, bag, you know, not leaving wipes, stuff like that. And then most exciting of all, what we've ended up doing is we do a double sweep of our courses. So Moab 240, we're double sweeping 240 miles. So we're actually sweeping 480 miles of trail. So I was out after Moab this year doing several sections and my staff did several sections of race. And we had a whole sweep team right after the last runner. We still found stuff on the second sweep. So we're picking up any little bit of trash. You can tell what's from runners because it's like goo packets and, you know, beanie hats and stuff.

So we're just picking up all that and just really making sure we don't leave anything. There's no way to get everything if you don't do two sweeps, unfortunately. Wow. That's a huge undertaking. Two sweeps of a 240. So listeners out there, if you're looking for some volunteer hours, give Candace a buzz for being one of the double sweep. It's interesting. You mentioned the crew pacers. Since I stopped running Western States, I've been volunteering every year. And when I talked to the race organizers, their biggest, what they tell me is the biggest risk to their permit is actually parking. Yeah.

So crews go to these remote places and they are supposed to park, you know. And these government agencies take parking very seriously because they need to get fire trucks through. They need to, you know, they need to have, you know, it's major business. And these agencies would have no problem saying, we're pulling your permit if you don't get these people to park on the right side of the road and four tires off the road or whatever it is. And so as a result of that, it was probably my fault for asking. I once asked one of these folks on Western States, you know, what is your biggest risk of your permit? And they said, well, parking. And so as a result of it, you know, be careful what you ask for. Every year I volunteer and park cars at dusty corners. That's the point you should love.

So I don't get to watch the first 12 hours of the race, but I'm serving the race well by telling people where to park at Duncan Canyon. Yeah. This is training your crew as a runner is a big thing. And also as a runner myself, I've come into aid stations and trying to get something and it's everyone's crew is in there. Right. And it's this dynamic and really training your crew because, you know, your mama, she wants the best for you. Right. She does. And she will run over whoever to take care of your ass. Just like when you're a kid. But, you know, it's hard to reign that in. But as a runner, like train your crew like this is, you know, every year I'm like, don't go here.

You can't park here. Guess what? I find someone there. Yeah. Right. And I have to say, this is called an unfair advantage. You know what I mean? And they're like, what's that? And I was like, it's called cheating. I will say, if you are running a long race or you're running a race, always go over as a runner with your crew, where they need to be, what they need to do. And look at environmental conditions, like at Western States on some of those roads, the grass might be pretty high on the side of the road. And say you have a hot muffler in a dry area. Right. Like you should be aware of everything you want to protect and the lands that you're visiting and leave them for others to enjoy.

Like Candace said, this is the goal of this. Yeah. And in Moab, we have the issue of the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management made it really clear that there's a lot of delicate little plants just off the road too that take forever to grow. And it doesn't look like it. If you're coming in from out of town, it just looks like the desert potentially. And so we have to be really careful exactly where people are parking. So those kind of things, you know, are good to remember. Like park a little further out and walk in if you have to. But don't be parking, you know, don't be making a parking spot out there on your own. Like not a good idea. I'm for not having a crew because you know what a crew will do?

If your best friend or your mama's in the car, they're going to make you stop because you look too bad. That's true. They'll convince you to go home. Honey, it's time to come home. My mom will be like, please get in the car. This is too much for me to watch. I love some of these races over the years like Angeles Crest and MMT back east. They've done like solo divisions where they'll sort of encourage you to go without a crew and they make it really easy to use drop bags and things like that. I think it helps. So before we wrap up, one more thing. We've talked a lot about, you know, where we are, where we came from, where we are, where we're going. Let's finish with what, you know, since the title of this podcast is the future of ultra running.

What gives you, as we're continuing to crawl out of the pandemic, what gives you hope for the future of ultra running? What gives you that feeling of, ah, in 2030, this is what I'm going to see. What gives you hope? Jason? You know, I feel like the races this year, people were just so enthusiastic and overcome with love and emotion when it hits the finish line. Like, I truly feel like that, all of that, that's what makes me put up with all the bullshit emails and jump through late at night with the for service person. It's like, you know, it's, it's so awesome that people allow me to be part of these wonderful memories.

And that's what propels me. And it's awesome. This year was awesome. So that's what I, that's great. I keep your ass fiddled down. Candice, what gives you that, that hope out there on the horizon? Well, definitely similar. This, this past year has been awesome, really just diving back into the events. And, and one thing I really love in the place I'm at, the organization, you know, you could say kind of like the top, but I get to like have all these different businesses could kind of grow off of. These race organizations, we hire a bunch of photographers, we hire videographers, we have food people, you know, and, and so it's cool to see parts of the community and people from the community also able to make kind of a living off of ultra running.

Cause I think that's, that's what a lot of our dream is, is to be able to do what we're passionate about. And so to see people coming out and being passionate about these races, you know, whatever distance it is. And then also being able to support other small businesses within our small business, you know, even like down to the awards that we order. And I know Jason does this too. It's really cool. Some of the companies that he uses for his awards and stuff support other small companies. So I think being able to do that is really inspiring for me as a business owner. Oh, that's great. Well, I've got to say, as a, as an aging ultra runner on the, definitely on the downhill side of his career, it gives me hope in the future to see the two of you.

Continuing to have this passion for what you do and why you do it. And, and an understanding that change is inevitable. Change is going to happen. People are going to come and go. Challenges are going to come, whether they're from crews and pacers or forest service representatives or annoying people on our emails. But at the end of the day, the satisfaction of greeting that person across the finish line. And, and when you finally pack up the last thing in the truck and can drive away from the race venue, there's something so satisfying in that. So I want to thank you for giving me that feeling of satisfaction, which is something that is often fleeting.

And for those of you listening, please, I, I, I'm, I'm sure most of you know, uh, Jason Green with Yeti, uh, Trail Runners and Candice Burt with Destination Trail. But please check out their websites, check out their events for 2023. Some of which I know are already sold out, but may have wait lists, uh, and may be worth, uh, checking out. But also, um, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to fall asleep on either of these on their social media feeds because they're pretty active there and sometimes funny. And sometimes they get stuff done real quickly, uh, on Twitter that, uh, these days. So Candice and Jason, thank you so much for, uh, before we leave, uh, AJW. Yeah. Okay.

Um, the other day I saw this tweet from you speaking of social media and it really spoke. I think we're running out of time. You're turning the time. More mentors, less coaches. Is that the, that, that, that, that, that tweet, yeah, I'm, I'm kidding. We're not running out of time. What was the tweet? Yeah, I, I, I, that tweet really spoke to me as someone who had a really good mentor in all training that provided me a way into all training that, you know, it's lasted over a decade. It's because, uh, uh, a mentor I had that, that really guided me in ultra running. So if you've been running for a few years, mentor someone, you know? Well, I, and actually I want to add to that too, because I've seen you say this on social media.

People ask like, how do I get into race directing or something like that, but also like, how do you find a mentor? And if you come out and volunteer and you know that we could use more volunteers, I think that, um, I think that you can meet people on a deeper level, even sometimes than you do running. So that's a way to possibly get that community beyond just sometimes when you're running, you know, you don't get the same amount of time to talk that you would volunteer. There's my plug. I will, I will say, you know, part of my motivation of that, we need more mentors, less coaches and, and full disclosure, I'm a, I'm an ultra running coach, but I, I think of myself more as a mentor. And, and I mean, the difference between the two is subtle.

I think, I think to be a mentor, I hope people don't take this the wrong way, but you kind of have to earn being a mentor, right? Typically mentors have been around, they have seen a few things, they've had some good experiences and some not so good experiences. And they're the kind of people that kind of put their arm around you and say, Hey, you know, and whether that's, whether that's for actual running, whether it's for race directing, race organizing, even in some of these big races, when they're passing, you know, when an aid station captain retires and they pass on the aid station to a new aid station captain, that requires certain mentoring. And so I think it's a subtle difference. And, and part of it, I admit was a little bit snarky because it seems like, it seems like everybody's a coach these days.

So everything I do, I find that mentors are kind of fleeting, alpinism, rock climbing, right? Like there's more sign up for these $900 classes, right? Luckily in, in alpinism and mountaineering, I found a really good mentor, right? And under this person's tutelage, you know, I had some successful summits. So I think we just need more of that, more of this care, right? Well, that's an excellent, excellent segue because to preview next week's Coupe Cast that I'm guesting on, I'm going to have three of my mentors, three older gentlemen from the sport, David Horton, Scotty Mills, and John Mettinger on the podcast to talk about the future of ultra running.

And I can only, if, if, if we thought, if we thought this one went down maybe a little dark alley for a little while and it didn't go down very long, wait till we get those three years on next week. I can't wait until you've picked their brains. Thank you, Candice. Thank you, Jason. This was, this was a wonderful moment. And I look forward to, to seeing you sometime, hopefully maybe the, over the year or this summer. Take care. Bye bye. Sounds great. What a great conversation that was with Jason and Candice about the future of ultra running. Um, I really enjoyed, uh, hearing more about them.

I hope you did too. And with the two of them, uh, at the helm of their organizations, I am confident that the future of our sport is in good hands. So until next time, this is Andy Jones Wilkins signing off for the Coupe Cast. We'll see you next time.